skydyvr 0 #101 January 4, 2005 QuoteThose warnings used to mean something. Nowadays helmets, baseball bats, jumper cables and extension cords have longer (and often more dire) warnings on them. Seen a pack of smokes lately? I don't know about anywhere but Colorado, but the warning on cigarette packs just got a lot lengthier, and in bigger print. It's a good thing -- thanks to efforts from all fronts, smoking is down more every year. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #102 January 4, 2005 >Seen a pack of smokes lately? Seen an extension cord lately? The last one I bought had _four_ warning flags on them, including one that tells you not to cut the wire with a saw, and not to use in wet areas or you can be KILLED (their caps, not mine.) Or check out ladders, TV antennas or oven cleaner - much the same. I'm not arguing that there is no warning on cigarettes, but the warnings on many other things (like extension cords) are much longer and scarier sounding. An ignorant person could therefore conclude that use of extension cords is more dangerous than smoking. One result of an overly litigious society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #103 January 4, 2005 So I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Like I said, the sytem is broken.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #104 January 4, 2005 QuoteSo I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Like I said, the sytem is broken. My school offers group health insurance to students. I don't know how common that is though. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #105 January 4, 2005 QuoteAn ignorant person could therefore conclude that use of extension cords is more dangerous than smoking. Good news for the Darwinists of the world. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #106 January 4, 2005 Still, I like the cigarette packages some of my friends have brought back from Europe, which have printed in clear, black bold letters, upon a white background that takes up half the front panel of the packsge, Smoking Kills. Pretty clear, honest, and easy to understand to for even the most ignorant among us. When I smoked, I figured I was being tricky by smoking cigarettes that were only dangerous to pregnant women. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #107 January 4, 2005 >Good news for the Darwinists of the world. Unfortunately, smoking generally doesn't kill you until after you reproduce - so evolution doesn't much care if you smoke or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #108 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Like I said, the sytem is broken. My school offers group health insurance to students. I don't know how common that is though. linz So does my son's (Temple U in Philly). It's basically worthless in terms of what's covered.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vstar2001 0 #109 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Like I said, the sytem is broken. The key thing here is choices... and you have them. Anyone here is likely a skidiver, and that means you payed out minimum 3-5 grand all said and done. If you say that you don't have health care, I ask, why did you CHOOSE skidiving over your own health? Other choices, just about any young adult can join the service and get a quality education and health care at the governments expense. You may CHOOSE not to join, but the choice is there to be made.........I just am................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #110 January 4, 2005 QuoteThe key thing here is choices... and you have them. Anyone here is likely a skidiver, and that means you payed out minimum 3-5 grand all said and done. If you say that you don't have health care, I ask, why did you CHOOSE skidiving over your own health? Other choices, just about any young adult can join the service and get a quality education and health care at the governments expense. You may CHOOSE not to join, but the choice is there to be made......... First, skydiving was the first thing to go. What gear that has not been sold is for sale. Priorities. Second, not everybody has the option of the military. They don't take just anybody, and it doesn't take much of an infirmary to keep you out. I, however, did my time, but have since become ineligible for enlistment, thus the option/choice is not there.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #111 January 4, 2005 QuoteSo I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Life is composed of choices. If anyone tells you that you can have it all, they are lying.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #112 January 4, 2005 QuoteSeen a pack of smokes lately? The warnings in parts of Europe are hilarious. I've seen "Smoking Kills" and "Cigarettes Cause Death," as well as various other graphic warnings.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #113 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeen a pack of smokes lately? The warnings in parts of Europe are hilarious. I've seen "Smoking Kills" and "Cigarettes Cause Death," as well as various other graphic warnings. When I was in 6th grade, the anti-smoking folks came and passed an actual rotted lung around the classroom. Fat lot of good it did me, I still went on to smoke for 20 years before wising up. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #114 January 4, 2005 It is absurd to think that the richest nation in the world is incapable of educating and keeping healthy its entire population, IMO. (Intended in no way, form or fashion to be a personal insult.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #115 January 4, 2005 QuoteIt is absurd to think that the richest nation in the world is incapable of educating and keeping healthy its entire population, IMO. Why? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,119 #116 January 4, 2005 >There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay >for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. Up until recently there was never, in the history of man, a nation that could feed all its people reliably, or provide instant communications from coast to coast, or predict the weather. Now we can, and in the future we'll be able to do more. We can certainly achieve "doctoral degrees" and universal healthcare for everyone who wants them if we choose to do so. The issue is - do we want to do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #117 January 4, 2005 QuoteWhy? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. That is a bold, unsubstantiated statement. We do not have the entire "history of man" at our disposal, and perfection aside, as it is an unattainable ideal, universal healthcare was/is in fact a reality for some cultures, past and present.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #118 January 4, 2005 QuoteThe issue is - do we want to do it? I'd actually say the issue is - what will we have to give up to do it? Unlimited wants, limited resources. Choices are going to have to be made. If you pick unlimited free education and unlimited, free healthcare, what are you going to give up? I guarantee it's going to have to be a lot.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #119 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. That is a bold, unsubstantiated statement. Perhaps you can name a nation that has been able to do so?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #120 January 4, 2005 I seem to remember some aboriginal nations that provided their people with universal healthcare, before we decimated them, anyway, to name one, from the past. There are countries today that have universal healthcare as well.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,119 #121 January 4, 2005 >I'd actually say the issue is - what will we have to give up to do it? Exactly. How much we have to give up is almost directly related to how much money we can make i.e. how strong our ecomomy is. With a strong economy, you have to give up very little. With a weak one you have to give up a lot. Since our ecomomy is relatively strong right now (faltering a bit, but not terminally as long as we can fix a few problems like the deficits) it would require relatively few sacrifices - although there would certainly be some. In any case, the issue is not "should we provide unlimited perfect health care to everyone?" but "how should we change healthcare in the US?" We currently have an unofficial two-tier system - the indigent get indifferent care in emergency rooms, while the people with health plans (or with money) get better care. Passing the costs of the indigent on to hospitals, insurance companies and (lastly) the state is effectively socialized medicine, although no one likes to call it that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #122 January 4, 2005 QuoteI seem to remember some aboriginal nations that provided their people with universal healthcare... Ah, yes. State of the art aboriginal healthcare. Free trepanning and chicken chants for all! I'm sure they also provided top flight educations in hunting and gathering to everyone who was motivated and capable.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #123 January 4, 2005 I think you underestimate homeopathic medicine. Allopathic medicine doesn't, itself, have such a great record. The point is, the all the people had access to the best medicine that was available to anyone in their society, or, in other words, universal healthcare. You asked for an example, I gave you one. Would you have preferred I said Cuba?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #124 January 4, 2005 QuoteIn any case, the issue is not "should we provide unlimited perfect health care to everyone?" but "how should we change healthcare in the US?" Oh, I'm happy to discuss that. But you do have to remember that this started as a discussion about providing high quality, universal, free healthcare. But sure. What would you change in our current system? As a side note, having required medical care in 7 nations, and having been involved in accidents where others required care in 4 more, my view of US healthcare mirrors Churchill's oft-cited view of democracy--specifically that it is the worst of all possible systems, except all the others that have been tried.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #125 January 4, 2005 QuoteI think you underestimate homeopathic medicine. Alleopathic medicine doesn't, itself, have such a great record. I agree completely. Alleopathic medicine appears to be (to re-quote from my last post) the worst of all possible medicine--except everything else that has been tried. If I had been living in an aboriginal culture, I'd be dead about 6 times now. Our modern system has kept me alive--and remember that I'm not exactly "the rich." QuoteThe point is, the all the people had access to the best medicine that was available to anyone in their society, or, in other words, universal healthcare. So, if we closed all of our hospitals, medical schools, and clinics, we'd have "Universal Healthcare"?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
jcd11235 0 #110 January 4, 2005 QuoteThe key thing here is choices... and you have them. Anyone here is likely a skidiver, and that means you payed out minimum 3-5 grand all said and done. If you say that you don't have health care, I ask, why did you CHOOSE skidiving over your own health? Other choices, just about any young adult can join the service and get a quality education and health care at the governments expense. You may CHOOSE not to join, but the choice is there to be made......... First, skydiving was the first thing to go. What gear that has not been sold is for sale. Priorities. Second, not everybody has the option of the military. They don't take just anybody, and it doesn't take much of an infirmary to keep you out. I, however, did my time, but have since become ineligible for enlistment, thus the option/choice is not there.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #111 January 4, 2005 QuoteSo I should have to choose between access to education or access to healthcare? Life is composed of choices. If anyone tells you that you can have it all, they are lying.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #112 January 4, 2005 QuoteSeen a pack of smokes lately? The warnings in parts of Europe are hilarious. I've seen "Smoking Kills" and "Cigarettes Cause Death," as well as various other graphic warnings.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #113 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeen a pack of smokes lately? The warnings in parts of Europe are hilarious. I've seen "Smoking Kills" and "Cigarettes Cause Death," as well as various other graphic warnings. When I was in 6th grade, the anti-smoking folks came and passed an actual rotted lung around the classroom. Fat lot of good it did me, I still went on to smoke for 20 years before wising up. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #114 January 4, 2005 It is absurd to think that the richest nation in the world is incapable of educating and keeping healthy its entire population, IMO. (Intended in no way, form or fashion to be a personal insult.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #115 January 4, 2005 QuoteIt is absurd to think that the richest nation in the world is incapable of educating and keeping healthy its entire population, IMO. Why? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #116 January 4, 2005 >There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay >for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. Up until recently there was never, in the history of man, a nation that could feed all its people reliably, or provide instant communications from coast to coast, or predict the weather. Now we can, and in the future we'll be able to do more. We can certainly achieve "doctoral degrees" and universal healthcare for everyone who wants them if we choose to do so. The issue is - do we want to do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #117 January 4, 2005 QuoteWhy? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. That is a bold, unsubstantiated statement. We do not have the entire "history of man" at our disposal, and perfection aside, as it is an unattainable ideal, universal healthcare was/is in fact a reality for some cultures, past and present.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #118 January 4, 2005 QuoteThe issue is - do we want to do it? I'd actually say the issue is - what will we have to give up to do it? Unlimited wants, limited resources. Choices are going to have to be made. If you pick unlimited free education and unlimited, free healthcare, what are you going to give up? I guarantee it's going to have to be a lot.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #119 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy? There has never, in the history of man, been a nation able to pay for doctoral degrees and perfect, universal healthcare for it's populace. That is a bold, unsubstantiated statement. Perhaps you can name a nation that has been able to do so?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #120 January 4, 2005 I seem to remember some aboriginal nations that provided their people with universal healthcare, before we decimated them, anyway, to name one, from the past. There are countries today that have universal healthcare as well.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #121 January 4, 2005 >I'd actually say the issue is - what will we have to give up to do it? Exactly. How much we have to give up is almost directly related to how much money we can make i.e. how strong our ecomomy is. With a strong economy, you have to give up very little. With a weak one you have to give up a lot. Since our ecomomy is relatively strong right now (faltering a bit, but not terminally as long as we can fix a few problems like the deficits) it would require relatively few sacrifices - although there would certainly be some. In any case, the issue is not "should we provide unlimited perfect health care to everyone?" but "how should we change healthcare in the US?" We currently have an unofficial two-tier system - the indigent get indifferent care in emergency rooms, while the people with health plans (or with money) get better care. Passing the costs of the indigent on to hospitals, insurance companies and (lastly) the state is effectively socialized medicine, although no one likes to call it that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #122 January 4, 2005 QuoteI seem to remember some aboriginal nations that provided their people with universal healthcare... Ah, yes. State of the art aboriginal healthcare. Free trepanning and chicken chants for all! I'm sure they also provided top flight educations in hunting and gathering to everyone who was motivated and capable.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #123 January 4, 2005 I think you underestimate homeopathic medicine. Allopathic medicine doesn't, itself, have such a great record. The point is, the all the people had access to the best medicine that was available to anyone in their society, or, in other words, universal healthcare. You asked for an example, I gave you one. Would you have preferred I said Cuba?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #124 January 4, 2005 QuoteIn any case, the issue is not "should we provide unlimited perfect health care to everyone?" but "how should we change healthcare in the US?" Oh, I'm happy to discuss that. But you do have to remember that this started as a discussion about providing high quality, universal, free healthcare. But sure. What would you change in our current system? As a side note, having required medical care in 7 nations, and having been involved in accidents where others required care in 4 more, my view of US healthcare mirrors Churchill's oft-cited view of democracy--specifically that it is the worst of all possible systems, except all the others that have been tried.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #125 January 4, 2005 QuoteI think you underestimate homeopathic medicine. Alleopathic medicine doesn't, itself, have such a great record. I agree completely. Alleopathic medicine appears to be (to re-quote from my last post) the worst of all possible medicine--except everything else that has been tried. If I had been living in an aboriginal culture, I'd be dead about 6 times now. Our modern system has kept me alive--and remember that I'm not exactly "the rich." QuoteThe point is, the all the people had access to the best medicine that was available to anyone in their society, or, in other words, universal healthcare. So, if we closed all of our hospitals, medical schools, and clinics, we'd have "Universal Healthcare"?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
