PhillyKev 0 #26 December 27, 2004 Agreed. A representative republic doesn't work if everyone isn't represented. In a country containing people of several different cultures and backgrounds, it's imperative to make sure that each separate group has a stake in the government. Especially in a nation with a history of oppressing whichever group is not in power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #27 December 27, 2004 oh my god We actually agree on something. Wow! Wonders never cease. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #28 December 27, 2004 QuoteAgreed. A representative republic doesn't work if everyone isn't represented. In a country containing people of several different cultures and backgrounds, it's imperative to make sure that each separate group has a stake in the government. Especially in a nation with a history of oppressing whichever group is not in power. there just might be hope for you yet Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #29 December 27, 2004 Yeah, I like representative governments. Too bad our President only panders to 52% of the population. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #30 December 27, 2004 QuoteYeah, I like representative governments. Too bad our President only panders to 52% of the population. yea but good thing it's the smarter 52% LOL you owe me a key board... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #31 December 27, 2004 I think you meant "keyboard". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #32 December 27, 2004 QuoteFree elections do not scare me well they sure seem to scare BinLadin and his thugs. If they really mean nothing then why are they trying to stop them. I'll tell you why because when the election work then the people in Iran are going to demand them suddenly the hard liners are out of power and suddenly with out a safe haven. QuoteHe promised to allow the country who helped him in his war to participate in the reconstruction of Irak, and now he gives government position to his friends. That is not democracy. WTF? QuoteWhen you talk about how many civilians died because SH you fail to point out that the U.S was also involved in those deaths by selling WMD to SH and supporting his dictatorship. Us involvement was not yesterday argreed? How ever how much responsibility do you place on the french, the germans, the russians and most of all the UN who were feeding him supplies to the very day of power? QuoteThe way i see it is that the U.S had a last chance to leave Irak with a bit of dignity after SH army was defeated. After he was defeated there was one or two months when the insurgency had not yet quite kicked in that a good post war plan may have worked. I guess you think a ready made Gov't just pops out of the ground. A group of people that have has no experience for what 30 years, danger that terrorist would attempt to walk in and take the freedom that they just was given. It would have been unspeakable to just walk away. QuoteHowever, the U.S was more interested in securing oil fields than working with the civilian population. That's just bullshit. QuoteNow, do you honestly think that those elections means anything? How many people do you reckon are going to go to vote and risk being blown out by a car terrorist bomb or a U.S bomb? does not matter how I feel, but I believe the avg Iraqi will do what ever it take to vote and that their vote will mean something......freedom and self determination for the 1st time in years thanks to a multi-nation group of people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #33 December 27, 2004 QuoteYeah, I like representative governments. Too bad our President only panders to 52% of the population. What % of the population voted for Mussolini? Godwin's Rule prevents me from pointing out the % that voted for another well known despot (it was way more than 52%) I don'[t see that a mere 52% means much at all. Especially when most of them came from prior slave states.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #34 December 27, 2004 QuoteI don'[t see that a mere 52% means much at all.*** Especially when most of them came from prior slave states. I see it as much because it was enough to keep a extreem lib like Kerry out. Get over it, Quote Especially when most of them came from prior slave states. ???? and your point is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #35 December 27, 2004 Quotewell they sure seem to scare BinLadin and his thugs. If they really mean nothing then why are they trying to stop them. I'll tell you why because when the election work then the people in Iran are going to demand them suddenly the hard liners are out of power and suddenly with out a safe haven. I would like to point out that Irak was never a safe heaven for OBL. OBL considered SH too progresist and didn´t like him much. the feeling was mutual. Go figure, under SH the women could study and didn´t have to wear burkas. QuoteQuoteHe promised to allow the country who helped him in his war to participate in the reconstruction of Irak, and now he gives government position to his friends. That is not democracy. WTF? If the government positions are given to representatives of the minorities, i don´t have anything against it, however that was not the impression that article gave me. Still, it looks to me more like U.S.-sponsored elections rather than free elections. QuoteUs involvement was not yesterday argreed? How ever how much responsibility do you place on the french, the germans, the russians and most of all the UN who were feeding him supplies to the very day of power? Not just supplies, I think U.K also was involved with supplying SH with WMD, although i am not positive about it. Of course whoever sold him weapons has as much responsability as the U.S, but you have to be consequent. If you sell him weapons to kill the kurds, don´t get upset if he kills the kurds, and don´t use it to further advance your political agenda. QuoteI guess you think a ready made Gov't just pops out of the ground. A group of people that have has no experience for what 30 years, danger that terrorist would attempt to walk in and take the freedom that they just was given. It would have been unspeakable to just walk away. I am not speaking of just walking away. The U.N could have taken care of it, and share the reponsbility and the costs. However Bush still though that he was sitting ona pile of gold and didn´t want anyone to interfere. Besides, he had already promised parts of the reconstruction of Irak to U.K, Spain and Poland, so he couldn´t just give it away to the U.N. QuoteThat's just bullshit. Sorry, it is not. That was one of the very first things done. Quotedoes not matter how I feel, but I believe the avg Iraqi will do what ever it take to vote and that their vote will mean something......freedom and self determination for the 1st time in years thanks to a multi-nation group of people. I am positive your intentions are good and in theory what you speak of is wonderful. It is not so much if you add the cost of it in the equation. Let´s suppose you had to daughters, Jennifer and Melanie. Would you accept Jennifers death so Melanie could vote? I would not accept that, the cost is too great. You are assuming that all the Irakies are willing to pay that price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #36 December 28, 2004 interesting point, spiritualy that is blashphamey. to say we're over there doing the lords work that is. since the new testament, jesus was all about turning the other cheeck and forgiving and praying for enemies. to try to twist the lords will to fit a political agenda is a sin. ironic that bush and the so called christians are always twisting the scripture . you either serve the lords will or your own. so are you or anyone else with this arguement gonna tell me that if jesus himself was here that he would be doing the same thing as far as bombing civilians to set people free? the other thing about the good things we're doing is this. picture our revolution here in america. we kind of had to work that out ourselves. when we head had enough , we did something about it. how would you feel if we had another country bombing us and occupying us to fix the 2000 election debacle or some other concern that is ours and only ours. it's just being nosey to stick your nose in someone elses bussiness un-invited._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #37 December 28, 2004 We also manipulate our Congressional district boundaries to help incumbents remain in power. Not exactly something to be proud of.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #38 December 28, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- well they sure seem to scare BinLadin and his thugs. If they really mean nothing then why are they trying to stop them. I'll tell you why because when the election work then the people in Iran are going to demand them suddenly the hard liners are out of power and suddenly with out a safe haven. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to point out that Irak was never a safe heaven for OBL. OBL considered SH too progresist and didn´t like him much. the feeling was mutual. Go figure, under SH the women could study and didn´t have to wear burkas. 1st you avoid addressing the main point. which is here f they really mean nothing then why are they trying to stop them. I wan't talking aout SBL but hardliners in gereral coming into Iraq. Quote Go figure, under SH the women could study and didn´t have to wear burkas. I am sure that made everything fine, I am sure they could study any thing they wanted. just like they could in NYC. QuoteIf the government positions are given to representatives of the minorities, i don´t have anything against it, however that was not the impression that article gave me. Still, it looks to me more like U.S.-sponsored elections rather than free elections. Like I have said before I believe your opinion about the US must shade your view otherwise I do not see how you could think that since the minority group is not one the US agrees with. QuoteNot just supplies, I think U.K also was involved with supplying SH with WMD, although i am not positive about it. Of course whoever sold him weapons has as much responsability as the U.S, but you have to be consequent. If you sell him weapons to kill the kurds, don´t get upset if he kills the kurds, and don´t use it to further advance your political agenda. Like I said You don;t see Germany, france, russia and China "responsible" for what they did. What the US did for Iraq was because they were fighting Iran. Or did you forget that as well??? QuoteI am not speaking of just walking away. The U.N could have taken care of it, and share the reponsbility and the costs. However Bush still though that he was sitting ona pile of gold and didn´t want anyone to interfere. Besides, he had already promised parts of the reconstruction of Irak to U.K, Spain and Poland, so he couldn´t just give it away to the U.N. How could they give it to the UN they cut and run like a french man in a fire fight? List for me all the free countries the UN has set up in the last 5-10-20 years? How many have they droped the ball on? QuoteI am positive your intentions are good and in theory what you speak of is wonderful. It is not so much if you add the cost of it in the equation. True freedom is never free. I've lost a number uncles and cousins and almost a brother, so I know the cost. Do you? QuoteLet´s suppose you had to daughters, Jennifer and Melanie. Would you accept Jennifers death so Melanie could vote? I would not accept that, the cost is too great. You are assuming that all the Irakies are willing to pay that price. That's where you and I differ, I believe they are willing. Members of the police force and army are open targets yet they keep showing up to work trying to make their nation a better place. Sound to me they have hope for it's future, to bad you don;t share their vision..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #39 December 28, 2004 QuoteWe also manipulate our Congressional district boundaries to help incumbents remain in power. Not exactly something to be proud of. I agree. But that's a completely separate and unrelated topic. Big difference between manipulating an existing, stable democracy to hold onto power, and trying to introduce parity and a representative government in the midst of chaos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #40 December 28, 2004 Quote I agree. But that's a completely separate and unrelated topic. Big difference between manipulating an existing, stable democracy to hold onto power, and trying to introduce parity and a representative government in the midst of chaos. Kevin, I wonder what kids today study. This should be High school freshman level history and gov't. Don't you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #41 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuote I agree. But that's a completely separate and unrelated topic. Big difference between manipulating an existing, stable democracy to hold onto power, and trying to introduce parity and a representative government in the midst of chaos. Kevin, I wonder what kids today study. This should be High school freshman level history and gov't. Don't you think? No, actually, I don't. We shouldn't be there in the first place trying to impose our values and beliefs on another country. Democracy cannot be coerced, it must come from within. It's pretty obvious that theres a small minority who are vehemently opposed to it, and a vast majority that don't want it enough to fight for it. But, we're screwed and have to stick it out until we can say, "See, we did our best", and then abandon them to the resultant chaos and blood shed that will ensue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #42 December 28, 2004 QuoteNo, actually, I don't. We shouldn't be there in the first place trying to impose our values and beliefs on another country. Democracy cannot be coerced, it must come from within. It's pretty obvious that theres a small minority who are vehemently opposed to it, and a vast majority that don't want it enough to fight for it. I was speaking of how our gov't works and why, good or bad. This seems to me should have been covered in high school US history and gov't 101. jcd11235 profile show as student, hopefully not a PS major.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #43 December 29, 2004 If you care to even look for the FACTS first and then find that regardless of service or not, i will become CITIZEN, then you basically are just speaking fictional stuff, or uneducated guesses. Again, not being in a place but in a unit that trains and is ready to be mobilized is a far stretch from being an arm chair quarterback. The big difference is I stood up from that chair and am doing something about it.......not just whinning. Again, when you care to find facts we could probably could have some pseudo decent conversation.....LOL..... What a dream world....."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tustinr 1 #44 December 30, 2004 Chill out mate. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I don't necessarily agree with the US foreign policy myself however am prepared to listen to your opinion - no need to get hard headed about it though. There is no black and white just different shades of grey. If 52% of the voters who voted for Bush are deemed intelligent by one person who has posted on this thread then I can only shake my head in despair ! Thats my opinion. Bush has his own agenda and its not in the best interest of the rest of the world thats for sure. Rich --------------------------------------- Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #45 January 1, 2005 I think the only one that needs to chill out in here is someone who can't seem to get the facts straight.........You are entitled to your opinions, absolutely, even though they may be just a lot of uneducated guesses, and as well that I am entitled to call BS on that.... Indeed I don't think that voting has anything to do with intelligence at all, it has a lot to do with the will of most. For you Bush may have have his own agenda, but new's flash....every president does....as well as elected officials anywhere in the world....LMAO... And as far as the best interest of the world, well, I do believe he was elected as president of the US, not as the head of the UN...maybe I missed a memo?....... Kerry lost, it was not your business either way, but I think you need to chill, and get over it..... Happy new year...LMAO...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #46 January 1, 2005 Q) Why are we in Iraq? A) Because Korea has Nukes. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #47 January 1, 2005 QuoteQ) Why are we in Iraq? wrong try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,131 #48 January 1, 2005 Juanesky, Botellines, Bodypilot90 - stop going after each other and then accusing each other of personal attacks. If you really feel offended by what someone has said, a good strategy is to ignore them, rather than escalate the argument. Escalating just gets people banned and threads locked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bigwallmaster 0 #49 January 2, 2005 In response to your original question. . . . . Besides oil, and corporate exploitation and all that other shit we have heard before, I strongly believe that one of the key reasons for our presence in Iraq is to keep radical extremists focused on attacking our troops over there, rather than carrying out attacks on our homeland. Lets face it, nothing is going to piss off a bunch of radical muslim extremists more than to have a 130,000 troops from the "Christian Nation" on the muslim holy soil. And where would you rather fight these crazy fuckers, over there, or on U.S. streets? The bottomline is that our presence in Iraq is a driving force for these young muslim males recruited by Al-Queda or other extremist groups, to flock to Iraq and "Fight the American Infidels!!" Are they still planning future attacks on U.S. soil? Sure. Will they pull a few off? Probably. But think about how many of these young radicals we would have planning attacks against U.S. cities, if we didn't have this war to distract them. Anyone else with me on this? Cheers and Happy New Years to everyone. J.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #50 January 2, 2005 How many people do you think that are necesary to prepare a big scale terrorist attack? Not many, of that you can be sure. And in the other hand, don´t you think they could take advantage that most of your troops are overseas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
