why we are in Iraq

[bodypilot90 0]

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by Brendan Miniter | Dec 21 '04

The most surprising thing an American military officer told me about his work in Iraq came in a statement he later asked to retract. And it strikes me as something worth thinking about in this Christmas season as we go through the annual ritual of pulling crèche scenes from courthouse lawns across America. In the debate over faith in the public square there is rarely an acknowledgement that there is a link between morality and government.
After describing the good works his men were doing by rebuilding schools and providing food and medicine to Iraqis, the officer summed up this list by saying "We're just doing the Lord's work." At the time the comment seemed perfectly appropriate. I do not know the officer's faith or even if he is a Christian. But his meaning was clear: His men were performing vital humanitarian work in addition to taking on insurgents. The surprise came a few minutes after the interview, when a public information officer asked to retract the comment. Apparently in the post-interview debriefing someone got scared that it could be misconstrued. The officer did not mean to imply that he was doing the Lord's work at all, I was assured.

But that is exactly what he meant and exactly what he is doing. After all there is a moral component to a policy that frees a people from a dictatorship, restores civil order and protects against a violent group of insurgents. The officer was right, however, to worry that a secular media might twist such a statement into "proof" that American soldiers were proselytizing in a Muslim country. After all, President Bush was hounded by the press for simply using the word "crusade" while talking about vigorously pursuing the war on terror.



However, nowhere is the moral component of public policy more apparent than Iraq. What U.S. troops found when they overturned Saddam Hussein's regime was a society governed by a thoroughly corrupt and manifestly immoral group of thugs. We've heard the tales of rape rooms, mass murder and other despicable and nearly unimaginable tortures. What has not made it into the public debate is the larger impact the rule of these monsters had on Iraqi society. Americans may be surprised by the extent of the insurgency, but we shouldn't be. Being ruled by an immoral elite destroys the fabric of a civil society.
After decades of Saddam's debauchery, it is civilization that has to struggle to reassert itself. While we may fear that a class of clerics will win January elections and write Islam into Iraq's civil law, we should be equally fearful of setting up a government that does not recognize a larger moral system than itself. That was the essence of Saddam's regime--that the ruling elite was above any accountability.

As Saddam and his henchmen stand trial for sins against their countrymen, they are finding they are in fact subject to the laws of decency that must govern human behavior. In Iraq, returning to moral principles is helping restore good government.



Secularists would like to convince us in America that religion is somehow incompatible with the principles of a free society. And that the display of faith in public is somehow equal to forcing religion on the general public. Yet until a real life Santa Clause steps forward to take the seat of power, the real fear is that governments will fail to recognize that they are not the final arbitrators of right and wrong and that morality matters. That's why democratic elections are so important--a leader who must face the electorate now and again comes to understand the limits to his power.
Are Americans soldiers doing the Lord's work in Iraq? To the extent that they are helping to set up a government that will be administered by a free people, the answer has to be yes.

could not have said it better, thanks to all the folks who are there to help free Iraq.

[Botellines 0]

Do not forget to thank the insurgents as well. They are doing their best to free Irak from the U.S.

It works both ways you know.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Do not forget to thank the insurgents as well. They are doing their best to free Irak from the U.S.

they're doing a piss-poor job of it. Fastest way to get the USA to leave is to stop the fighting. The more they blow people up the longer we stay.

Speed Racer
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[dbattman 0]

Bote, exactly what is it that you would like to see happen over there? I've been reading your posts for quite some time now and I just can't figure it out.

[Botellines 0]

Tough question, i would have preferred no iraqui invasion altogether. Saddam Hussein was no good, but he was better than the U.S both at keeping order, and keeping innocent casualties low. (well, at least lower than the U.S. If things got too bad in Iraq, there would have been a revolt.

Anyway, that is the past, let´s talk about the present. No one trusts the U.S. less the Iraquies, so the best solution, would be that the U.S gets the fuck out of Irak, let the situation chill out for a while, and that the U.N, offer their help to whoever has more popular support (Probably some religious leader). Emphasis added in to the offer, not impose.

Has anyone thought that maybe instead of a democracy they prefer a teocracy?

[Botellines 0]

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they're doing a piss-poor job of it. Fastest way to get the USA to leave is to stop the fighting. The more they blow people up the longer we stay.

You don´t really believe that, right? When they stop the fight you will leave only to bring a McDonalds in every corner and set a puppet government that will do whatever the white house commands.

Man, they have their pride and their ego, and it is their damn country. Take your democracy and your capitalism back home, because maybe they don´t want it. Maybe in that region another form of government is neccesary.

[SpeedRacer 1]

from Iraqi blogs, it seems that the Iraqis are very mixed in their attitudes re. the US. Some think we should get out now, but they're glad Saddam is gone, a few favor Saddam (these types don't seem to have much presence on the WWW though. most Iraqis hate Saddam way too much, even if they hate the USA also), and some Iraqis think we need to stay to provide security otherwise there will be a civil war & iraq will break apart.

You seem to believe that all Iraqis are of the same mind. I've read a lot of blogs & articles written by Iraqis, and it seems to me the situation is complex & not all Iraqis agree on what should be done.

I'm reading a lot of posts on this forum re. Iraq and many people seem to have very black-and-white ideas about Iraqis. As usual, the truth is more complicated.
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that said, I did not want this war, but the question is what do we do now. I would like the coalition to get out as soon as possible, but yet I don't agree with people who think that the violence would cease if we just dropped everything & left today. There are different elements to the insurgency, with very different motives. The situation is not as black-and-white as people are making it sound.

Speed Racer
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[dbattman 0]

If they prefer to live under a theocracy, then the government that they select over the next few years through free elections will reflect that. There will be no puppet government this time around. If they want the religious heads driving the ship that's what they will get.

From what I see, the Iraqis are picking their own leaders for the first time in decades, the UN is providing the technical lead in setting up the elections, and the Coalition is guarding the ballot box.

How do you see it?

[kallend 2,175]

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Do not forget to thank the insurgents as well. They are doing their best to free Irak from the U.S.

they're doing a piss-poor job of it. Fastest way to get the USA to leave is to stop the fighting. The more they blow people up the longer we stay.

The Viet Cong showed that strategy to be incorrect.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bodypilot90 0]

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Tough question, i would have preferred no iraqui invasion altogether.

but then you didn't have to live under SH did you. I think maybe you are projecting your feelings you have for the US to them. Just a thought.

[Botellines 0]

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but then you didn't have to live under SH did you. I think maybe you are projecting your feelings you have for the US to them. Just a thought.

No, thank god i didn´t live under SH. But do not forget though that Spain has had its share of dictators. Franco had this nasty habit of executing people who didn´t share his ideas, so I know what to live under a dictator is all about.
However when your 4 years old daughter is blown up to pieces, you tend to be very angry at whoever killed your daughter, wether it is a dictatorship, a terrorist, or some foreign soldier thinking he is doing you a favour.

My feeling towards the U.S are quite complicated and i don´t think any of the poster in DZ.com quite get it for they don´t know much about me. I think you are mistaken my feelings toward the U.S current administration with my feelings toward the U.S. in general. They are completely different
But it is a cheap shot (i am not refering to you) to say someone is a U.S hater to invalidate his arguments. I think that is one of the logical fallacies.

[bodypilot90 0]

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No, thank god i didn´t live under SH. But do not forget though that Spain has had its share of dictators. Franco had this nasty habit of executing people who didn´t share his ideas, so I know what to live under a dictator is all about

yes but would you be willing to live under Franco just because he was able to keep order. A lot of time and personal sacrifice must be given in order to free the masses. This I know for I lost a couple of uncles in WW2. I know a few people living in Iran right now who would risk everything they own for free and fair elections. It is in the human spirit to want to be free and have self determination. Or is this true only for americans? If you'll remember back to the Reagan years you will find the US help many new democracy in central America and Asked, no challenged, at the Brandenburg Gate. ... Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

was he mistaken, I don't think so. and for every 4 year old killed there are 2 being saved that would have died do to the SH and France's greed in the oil for food scam. Kids going to school for the 1st time, medical centers opening. Yes we pissed off a few hard liners oh well. Yes life is going to be hard for a while. But they have something they have not had for a long time....Hope for the future, for a free Iraq. What are you willing to give to help them find that???

[DexterBase 1]

Have you ever been on the ground and talked to some Iraqis? Ever ask them what they want? You ever been ambushed by some insurgents? Have you ever actually researched what we're doing over there before you made your conclusions?

Do you realize that many insurgents we kill over there aren't Iraqis? The insurgency is multinational. There's a lot going on behind the scenes that you won't see on CNN or BBC. It's likely that you will never know all the details, so don't dismiss the possibility that you might not have a view of the bigger picture.

[Gawain 0]

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Tough question, i would have preferred no iraqui invasion altogether. Saddam Hussein was no good, but he was better than the U.S both at keeping order, and keeping innocent casualties low. (well, at least lower than the U.S. If things got too bad in Iraq, there would have been a revolt.

Anyway, that is the past, let´s talk about the present. No one trusts the U.S. less the Iraquies, so the best solution, would be that the U.S gets the fuck out of Irak, let the situation chill out for a while, and that the U.N, offer their help to whoever has more popular support (Probably some religious leader). Emphasis added in to the offer, not impose.

Has anyone thought that maybe instead of a democracy they prefer a teocracy?

Pretty funny solution, since it was the UN that rejected additional security before being blown up and ultimately withdrawing from Iraq. Now, they don't want to go back. Wholly ineffectual.

In terms of if they want a theocracy, I think all they have to do is look at the dissatisfaction of their neighbors in Iran to determine that a theocracy isn't very desireable. Just a few more years and Iran will be ready for another revolution I think.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,175]

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Tough question, i would have preferred no iraqui invasion altogether. Saddam Hussein was no good, but he was better than the U.S both at keeping order, and keeping innocent casualties low. (well, at least lower than the U.S. If things got too bad in Iraq, there would have been a revolt.

Anyway, that is the past, let´s talk about the present. No one trusts the U.S. less the Iraquies, so the best solution, would be that the U.S gets the fuck out of Irak, let the situation chill out for a while, and that the U.N, offer their help to whoever has more popular support (Probably some religious leader). Emphasis added in to the offer, not impose.

Has anyone thought that maybe instead of a democracy they prefer a teocracy?

Pretty funny solution, since it was the UN that rejected additional security before being blown up and ultimately withdrawing from Iraq. Now, they don't want to go back. Wholly ineffectual.

In terms of if they want a theocracy, I think all they have to do is look at the dissatisfaction of their neighbors in Iran to determine that a theocracy isn't very desireable. Just a few more years and Iran will be ready for another revolution I think.

Right, and that should be their business, not ours. Remember 1953.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

Bill, all the experience he has probably from living under Franco is that he was 3 years old....very vivid memory, as he died 29 years ago...lol...also much more experience in how to be in the military, how this military operations are done, how to deal with the UCMJ, be judge and juror, towards US troops. Not to forget that all killed in Iraq are innocents, as they did not had weapons in their hands when taken pictures.

Yea, based on facts and knowledge....LMAO....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[bodypilot90 0]

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Bill, all the experience he has probably from living under Franco is that he was 3 years old....very vivid memory, as he died 29 years ago...lol...also much more experience in how to be in the military, how this military operations are done, how to deal with the UCMJ, be judge and juror, towards US troops. Not to forget that all killed in Iraq are innocents, as they did not had weapons in their hands when taken pictures.

Yea, based on facts and knowledge....LMAO....

somehow I believe he'd feel different if he lived under SH, unless he was a member of the republican guard......

[Botellines 0]

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Bill, all the experience he has probably from living under Franco is that he was 3 years old....very vivid memory, as he died 29 years ago...lol...

Dude, you have this nasty habit of not reading the posts before replying. Did I write that my experience was first hand? I don´t think so. I mean, if i had first hand experience of how Franco´s regime executes people, i could not be writing this, right?
I guess that in your fantasy world having grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles, cousins and friends who have lived under a dictatorship unqualifies me to understand a dictatorship.

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also much more experience in how to be in the military, how this military operations are done, how to deal with the UCMJ, be judge and juror, towards US troops.

Hey Hey Hey, easy there. You are not even american and you already act like the most radical republican. Shouldn´t you wait to get your green card before defending no-matter-what the U.S, I mean, it is not like the inmigration authorities read up this forum.
Make no mistake, you are as armchair quaterback as myself when it comes to the Irak war. The only diference is that I value life (both Iraki and american) way more than you do.

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Not to forget that all killed in Iraq are innocents, as they did not had weapons in their hands when taken pictures.

No, no, they are guilty, how do they dare those pesky iraquis to misbehave in the 51th state of the U.S.A.

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Yea, based on facts and knowledge....LMAO....

It is getting harder and harder to take your posts seriously. Have you realized that most if not all of your posts are about trying to bash my posts?
Dude, if the girls gave me half the attention you give me, I would be pulling every day

[bodypilot90 0]

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Hey Hey Hey, easy there. You are not even american and you already act like the most radical republican.

why your not even close to being a american and you sound like John Kerry.

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Shouldn´t you wait to get your green card before defending no-matter-what the U.S, I mean, it is not like the inmigration authorities read up this forum.

I think you should check your facts instead of pointless personal attacks

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Make no mistake, you are as armchair quaterback as myself when it comes to the Irak war. The only diference is that I value life (both Iraki and american) way more than you do.

hmmm you would rather live life under Francos or SH than be free? Is that true? And how can you know what Juan values?

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No, no, they are guilty, how do they dare those pesky iraquis to misbehave in the 51th state of the U.S.A.

Maybe you have not read but they are having free elections in a few weeks. Does this scare you?

[MarkF 0]

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Maybe you have not read but they are having free elections in a few weeks. Does this scare you?

Would that be these free elections ?

Ooroo
Mark F...

[juanesky 0]

You see how easy is to debunk myths around here Bill?

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No, thank god i didn´t live under SH. But do not forget though that Spain has had its share of dictators. Franco had this nasty habit of executing people who didn´t share his ideas, so I know what to live under a dictator is all about.

Sounds like first hand experience....


Yep, he certainly knows, first hand, does not train in either team, one that might go over there and has already been on the waiting list to actually GO there, and will take ACTION, let me spell it just in case A-C-T-I-O-N to protect the lives of those in my team and innocents...lets keep it simple, apple to apples and oranges to oranges ok?

On the other hand, he thinks I'm an arm chair quarterback...lol...I am currently in the US NAVY, CB, who are sent to build over there,and you go a little further....wow, like yes, they don't do immigration security and background checks for the US military....ok, yep, he is an expert...How dare I...

Maybe perhaps, if he could at least pretend to care to read about the laws of immigration, or learn the FACTS, how things are done...maybe we could be at some sort of "balanced" level.

LMAO......

Back to you Bill...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[bodypilot90 0]

perhaps this is the iraq you'd rather see

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IRAQ: Deaths under Saddam Hussein

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Tom Grey answers David Crow's request the empirical basis for his statement on the number of dead under Saddam Hussein. "See http://www.gbn.org/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=2400&msp=1242 Here is an excerpt:":Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power"

But such facts are not enough -- because for him the true question is whether civilians killed by the war are "unnecessary". I need to ask whether he thinks the civilian deaths were necessary or not. I clearly believe they were necessary to oust Saddam and save the lives he would have murdered, to free the children from prison, etc. -- in fact more necessary than the atomic bombs to force Japan's surrender If Mr. Crow is willing to accept Muslim fanatic terrorists with WMDs, or Muslim theocracy, rather than fight for Western/ Christian/ Capitalist/ Freedom, then indeed comparing death rates doesn't mean much".

[Botellines 0]

Free elections do not scare me, the elections Irak are having do scare me. They are not free. Bush has been baragining with Irak before the beggining. He promised to allow the country who helped him in his war to participate in the reconstruction of Irak, and now he gives government position to his friends. That is not democracy.
Let´s have this straight, i am happy SH is not in power anymore, even if it was by means of an illegal war. When you talk about how many civilians died because SH you fail to point out that the U.S was also involved in those deaths by selling WMD to SH and supporting his dictatorship.
The way i see it is that the U.S had a last chance to leave Irak with a bit of dignity after SH army was defeated. After he was defeated there was one or two months when the insurgency had not yet quite kicked in that a good post war plan may have worked. However, the U.S was more interested in securing oil fields than working with the civilian population.
Now, do you honestly think that those elections means anything? How many people do you reckon are going to go to vote and risk being blown out by a car terrorist bomb or a U.S bomb?

[Botellines 0]

Dude, i only say about your green card because in another post you said that you were about to get the residence or something like that. You really sound to me like you are trying to speed up the process by repeating over and over the right wing agenda. I don´t care to look up U.S inmigration requirement because i am happy in my country.

About being an armchair quaterback. GQ_Jumper posts from Irak, and although i may not agree with many of his posts, he knows what he is talking about. You are in the U.S, and you already talk like you are in a war zone. Big diference... When you post from Irak, i will stop thinking that you watch too much TV (Fox news)

[dbattman 0]

We do the same thing over here. Some of our congressional districts look like snakes weaving along a street or through different neighborhoods. The sole purpose for that is to try and guarantee someone from a certain minority group wins a seat in congress. No system is perfect, but trying to balance the spirit of the democratic system with everyone's interests represented fairly is a tricky one.