To all Christians out there.

[jcd11235 0]

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You are either ignoring or are unaware of the fact that profit, in any business, is a motivator to do better. Profit motivates people to innovate, create, enhance, streamline and refine.

No, I am not ignoring that belief; the entire paragraph deals with it.

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[skydyvr 0]

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You are either ignoring or are unaware of the fact that profit, in any business, is a motivator to do better. Profit motivates people to innovate, create, enhance, streamline and refine.

No, I am not ignoring that belief; the entire paragraph deals with it.

You seem to be saying that simply because everyone needs health care and education, there is no need for profit motives in those industries. My response is that profit is a good motivator in those industries anyway. Am I missing something?

. . =(_8^(1)

[jcd11235 0]

While profit may be a good motivator in these industries, it is an unnecessary one, due to the nearly universal demand. That is my point.

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[skydyvr 0]

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While profit may be a good motivator in these industries, it is an unnecessary one, due to the nearly universal demand. That is my point.

Please relate universal demand to the lack of need to innovate.

We all have to eat, so do you also see a lack of need to innovate there too?

. . =(_8^(1)

[jcd11235 0]

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Please relate universal demand to the lack of need to innovate.

Isn't it obvious?
Wouldn't it be nice if all doctors chose their profession because the truly loved what they did, and considered their talents not just a gift, but also a means of contribution back into society, without having to deal with the bozoes that are primarily concerned with their tee-time and country club membership. Or teachers that loved to teach and learn and promote independant thought, without having to deal with the ones that are there for the retirement benefits and the summer vacations.

People are far more productive when they are passionate about what they do. Removal of profit changes the motivation to get into the industry, but that change is not necessarily a bad thing.

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We all have to eat, so do you also see a lack of need to innovate there too?

If you are asking if processed and gentically modified foods are a good idea, I would have to admit that they are not the best ones to ever come along. I would much rather eat healthy food, that lacks all the "innovations."

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[Nightingale 0]

most of the teachers I know, if they're not married, can't afford to retire.

I'll freely admit that money was a factor in my choosing to go to law school. However, if I wasn't interested in the law, you could pay me a fortune and I wouldn't do it. Also, if it didn't pay enough for me to pay my bills, I wouldn't do it. I quit teaching because I simply couldn't afford to stay in the profession. I couldn't pay my rent.

Being a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, etc, isn't an easy thing. I think the profits should reflect the difficulty inherent in the job and the requirements to enter the field, and the cost of the training involved (education degree/credential, medical school, law school, etc).

I can't imagine many people would become doctors if they knew they were going to finish school with $200 K in student loans, but were only going into a job that paid $25K. The profession would not only be unprofitable, but it would make people leave for higher paying fields.

[SBS 0]

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Before capitalism came to America, we had skilled craftsman. Along came Henry Ford with his assembly line, and suddenly there was minimal need for skill, thus more competition for any given job.

So you are suggesting that the assembly line is not the fruits of someone's labor? Someone came up with an idea, implimented it, and made money off of it, and that is wrong? How is that different than pounding steel into horseshoes, picking fields, and sewing dresses, selling them, and making money (except that it takes more brain power than muscle)?

Did the booms in population have nothing to do with competition for jobs? And do you think that it should have been illegal for Ford to create the assembly line, because he owed anybody anything? Why would you say that the fruits of his labors were owed to anyone but himself?

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Where workers had once sold the fruits of their own labors to earn their living, they now are paid less for their time, so that a middleman, who contributes only capital, but no work, can make a profit.

So Henry Ford did no work? How did any of these skilled laborers know how to build a car? Do you own a car? What do you think your car would be like, if you had one at all, if we had not had people as innovative as Ford, that were able to profit from the fruits of their labor? Why would he have done any of it, if at the end of the day, he had to go home to his shack and eat beans?

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However, that same profit in healthcare, or education, is nothing more than a drain on society. The demand for services is nearly equal to the national population, so there is no need for additional market motivation.

The problem with healthcare is not that there is competition. The problem is that specifically in the prescription drug market, the end result of success is that people no longer need your services. It's a conflict of interest, which we eventually lose. Would you suggest that we socialize healthcare? I, personally, don't want my next trip to the doctor's to be like going to the DMV or courthouse.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[jcd11235 0]

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most of the teachers I know, if they're not married, can't afford to retire.

I'll freely admit that money was a factor in my choosing to go to law school. However, if I wasn't interested in the law, you could pay me a fortune and I wouldn't do it. Also, if it didn't pay enough for me to pay my bills, I wouldn't do it. I quit teaching because I simply couldn't afford to stay in the profession. I couldn't pay my rent.

Being a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, etc, isn't an easy thing. I think the profits should reflect the difficulty inherent in the job and the requirements to enter the field, and the cost of the training involved (education degree/credential, medical school, law school, etc).

I can't imagine many people would become doctors if they knew they were going to finish school with $200 K in student loans, but were only going into a job that paid $25K. The profession would not only be unprofitable, but it would make people leave for higher paying fields.

I don't want it to sound like I am unappreciative of doctors or teachers. I just don't understand why we charge people to learn these professions. There is no reason why it should cost a fortune to go to medical school when we need more doctors. The same thing goes for teachers. And we should reward those that choose to teach or doctor us with enough money to live comfortably (not to be confused with extravagantly).

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[jcd11235 0]

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So you are suggesting that the assembly line is not the fruits of someone's labor? Someone came up with an idea, implimented it, and made money off of it, and that is wrong? How is that different than pounding steel into horseshoes, picking fields, and sewing dresses, selling them, and making money (except that it takes more brain power than muscle)?

Did the booms in population have nothing to do with competition for jobs? And do you think that it should have been illegal for Ford to create the assembly line, because he owed anybody anything? Why would you say that the fruits of his labors were owed to anyone but himself?

I am not suggesting anything, only pointing out a turning point at which our economy took a turn towards capitalism on a large scale.

You are projecting my general comments of investors directly to the individual Henry Ford. Investors are not all the same. Some even profit by treating their employees extremely fairly in a market where such fairness is relatively rare. There are no absolutes.

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The problem with healthcare is not that there is competition. The problem is that specifically in the prescription drug market, the end result of success is that people no longer need your services. It's a conflict of interest, which we eventually lose. Would you suggest that we socialize healthcare? I, personally, don't want my next trip to the doctor's to be like going to the DMV or courthouse.

Have you been to the emergency room lately, with non-life threatening injuries? Much faster to go to the DMV. You are right about the conflict of interest in the pharmeceutical industry, though. All the more reason to eliminate profits.

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[SBS 0]

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I am not suggesting anything, only pointing out a turning point at which our economy took a turn towards capitalism on a large scale.

You are projecting my general comments of investors directly to the individual Henry Ford. Investors are not all the same. Some even profit by treating their employees extremely fairly in a market where such fairness is relatively rare. There are no absolutes.

The way you mentioned Henry Ford seemed to be in a negative tone, and representative of your point. I, though, find people like Ford to be a good example of what capitalism can be. If I misinterpreted, though, I appologize.

I think that your statement about no absolutes is a great one. It needs to include as well, that there are no absolutes when it comes to capitalism and our society. We are not a purely capitalistic society, but the problems that we have seem to be blamed absolutely on capitalism.

Here is a small example: (from Ayn Rand)

Someone goes into business. Capitalism says that he can charge what he wants to charge. If he charges too much, nobody buys what he is selling, if he charges too little, he doesn't make a profit. If he charges the same as everyone else, he doesn't have an edge. He adjusts accordingly.

In the United States: The man goes into business. He charges too much, he can be accused of attempting to monopolize, unless he has adequate competition, in which case, he would not be able to charge that high a price anyway. If he charges too little, he can be accused of unfair competition. If he charges the same as others, he can be accused of conspiracy. Is this man actually free to set prices, and conduct business as it was meant to be conducted under capitalism?

We say we live in a capitalistic society, but as you said, there are no absolutes. We are not purely capitalistic, any more than Lennin represented pure socialism.

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Have you been to the emergency room lately, with non-life threatening injuries? Much faster to go to the DMV. You are right about the conflict of interest in the pharmeceutical industry, though. All the more reason to eliminate profits.

Completely eliminating profits would eliminate their desire to work at all. We just want them to not have motivation to keep us sick. The higher ups need to make a profit, that's just a fact. You may say that they don't do any work, but I think that it takes brain juice to make a company function. So, the less profit there is, the less the company makes, therefore, the less the skilled laborer who you are fighting for makes.

The math that you did earlier just doesn't make sense, and that is this:

cost of labor + profit = actual value of labor

What doesn't make sense is that you expect that someone is going to realize the full value of their labor. But, without the addition of the middleman who you say doesn't do any work, the value of our labor is not what you now consider to it to be.

How much is it worth for me to swing a hammer on the side of the road? What do you suppose people will pay me to pound nails into a random board on the side of the road? Probably not much. But, if someone hires me to build a house, I'm going to make a lot more money. Can I build a house on my own? Yes. Is it likely? No. People want things faster, better. So, we have a small army to build the house. Who is in charge of the army, and who makes sure that we get the work over the other guy? While I am swinging a hammer, how am I going to be out looking for my next job that I will need in a few weeks? I can't...so we have someone at the office do it. Gotta pay them...oh, crap...that comes out of my hammer swinging pocket. But what right do I have to complain, considering that I am working more than I would if they were not there? I could go do contract work, I am perfectly free to do that. But I, a free human being, choose to stay with a company making a wage that is slightly less, but is insured for a certain time to come, as long as I continue to do adequate work and earn said compensation.

Getting back to the equation, the actual value of labor equals not only the labor of the hammer swingers, but the labor of the office people, the owners, the managers, the accountants, etc. These being people who do jobs that were made more necessary by things such as the assembly line. If you worked for a company that made a couple of cars a year, how many accountants would you need? Why is it that we are always so concerned about the laborers? Why are they owed anything more than the rest of us? Why do we think that any of us are owed anything at all? I can lose my job tomorrow. That is my company's right, to fire me if they don't think that I am doing a good job for them. I can also quit. I have that right if I don't think that they are right for me. Why should I have rights that they don't? I saved a $125,000 job this year single handedly. That was 10% of our revenue in 2004. What would I have saved if they hadn't created this company and invested $25 million? So, what was the value of my labor? To them, it was $125,000. It was a week of my time, and it is twice what I make in a year. I'm not complaining, because I agreed to do the best job that I can, and take pride in it. I have sold my labor at a price, and expect that my company will profit, just as I do.

I think it's crazy to think that the investors, who actually had risk, and in the end are providing a living for 5, 10, 100, or thousands of people, don't deserve to go home to a nice house at the end of the day.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Ron 10]

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Before capitalism came to America, we had skilled craftsman.

We had capitaism since day one. If this blacksmiths prices were to high you could go to another. If you wnated the best you paid the price the best asked.

And we STILL have skilled craftsmen. Ever frame a house? Hang a door?

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Along came Henry Ford with his assembly line, and suddenly there was minimal need for skill, thus more competition for any given job.

Ford also brought the 5 day work week. He also made it so that the common man could afford things that only the rich could afford. And by doing so, he made himself very rich.

You can say many bad things about Ford (For example how he hated Jews), but his goal to make a car affordable to everyone was a rather socalistic ideal.

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However, that same profit in healthcare, or education, is nothing more than a drain on society. The demand for services is nearly equal to the national population, so there is no need for additional market motivation.

Then why does the US have the best health care and Canada one of the worst?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Wouldn't it be nice if all doctors chose their profession because the truly loved what they did, and considered their talents not just a gift, but also a means of contribution back into society, without having to deal with the bozoes that are primarily concerned with their tee-time and country club membership

Idealistic, and not very real world. I am sure most Dr's. want to do what they do not just for the nice cars...(Doctors have the higest suicide and divorce rates of any profession)...But being a nice guy does not pay off the bills to school that they owe, or the fact that it took them 6-7 years to become a Dr.

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People are far more productive when they are passionate about what they do. Removal of profit changes the motivation to get into the industry, but that change is not necessarily a bad thing.

If you told Dr's that they would only make 40 grand a year, you would not get the best and brightest doing it.....I for one like the idea of the smartest becoming Dr's.

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If you are asking if processed and gentically modified foods are a good idea, I would have to admit that they are not the best ones to ever come along. I would much rather eat healthy food, that lacks all the "innovations."

Then you don't like progress? I guess you don't eat food that used checmicals. If you want to pay the price for those foods thats your right. That is capitalism at work. You want organic foods you can buy them if you can afford them. I'll go with the cheaper stuff thanks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jerryzflies 0]

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Wouldn't it be nice if all doctors chose their profession because the truly loved what they did, and considered their talents not just a gift, but also a means of contribution back into society, without having to deal with the bozoes that are primarily concerned with their tee-time and country club membership

Idealistic, and not very real world. I am sure most Dr's. want to do what they do not just for the nice cars...(Doctors have the higest suicide and divorce rates of any profession)...But being a nice guy does not pay off the bills to school that they owe, or the fact that it took them 6-7 years to become a Dr.

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People are far more productive when they are passionate about what they do. Removal of profit changes the motivation to get into the industry, but that change is not necessarily a bad thing.

If you told Dr's that they would only make 40 grand a year, you would not get the best and brightest doing it.....I for one like the idea of the smartest becoming Dr's.

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If you are asking if processed and gentically modified foods are a good idea, I would have to admit that they are not the best ones to ever come along. I would much rather eat healthy food, that lacks all the "innovations."

Then you don't like progress? I guess you don't eat food that used checmicals. If you want to pay the price for those foods thats your right. That is capitalism at work. You want organic foods you can buy them if you can afford them. I'll go with the cheaper stuff thanks.

It takes just as long and costs as much to become a PhD in,say, chemical engineering or computer science as a MD. The reason medical Drs are paid so much is that the US medical schools carefully control admission numbers so that the profession is, in actuality, a cartel.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[Ron 10]

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It takes just as long and costs as much to become a PhD in,say, chemical engineering or computer science as a MD. The reason medical Drs are paid so much is that the US medical schools carefully control admission numbers so that the profession is, in actuality, a cartel.

I heard a story on NPR about Dr's. It said that they work some of the worst shifts around. They said that the shifts result in a higher level of mistakes. I remember think it was a little far fetched. So I asked some of my Dr. friends and they agreed.

Tell me, how many IT folks do you know that work 12hrs a day at in an environment where lives are on the line with each step.

See if a Dr. screws up, someone dies and then someone sues. If you Computer science guy screws up....No one dies.

Great responsibility should come with greater pay.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jerryzflies 0]

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It takes just as long and costs as much to become a PhD in,say, chemical engineering or computer science as a MD. The reason medical Drs are paid so much is that the US medical schools carefully control admission numbers so that the profession is, in actuality, a cartel.

I heard a story on NPR about Dr's. It said that they work some of the worst shifts around. They said that the shifts result in a higher level of mistakes. I remember think it was a little far fetched. So I asked some of my Dr. friends and they agreed.

Tell me, how many IT folks do you know that work 12hrs a day at in an environment where lives are on the line with each step.

See if a Dr. screws up, someone dies and then someone sues. If you Computer science guy screws up....No one dies.

Great responsibility should come with greater pay.

Common wisdom is that doctors bury their mistakes. Engineers get sued too.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[Ron 10]

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Common wisdom is that doctors bury their mistakes. Engineers get sued too.

OK, but don't you think that the added resposibility of a persons life is worth extra income?

I do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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The way you mentioned Henry Ford seemed to be in a negative tone, and representative of your point. I, though, find people like Ford to be a good example of what capitalism can be. If I misinterpreted, though, I appologize.

I admire Ford's work in using renewable natural resources to build cars (hemp, flax, spruce) but find his anti-semitism appalling. I also find it near treasonable that he put so much effort into financing the Third Reich. I even heard a rumor (but have yet to verify it) that Ford even successfully sued this country for bombing one of his tank manufacturing facilities in Nazi Germany. And the installment payment plan for his cars contributed to the Depression. You're right, Ford is an excellent example of what Capitalism can be.

BTW Ayn Rand wrote from the perspective of Soviet Communism, which shares little except for the name with Marxism.

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Completely eliminating profits would eliminate their desire to work at all. We just want them to not have motivation to keep us sick. The higher ups need to make a profit, that's just a fact. You may say that they don't do any work, but I think that it takes brain juice to make a company function. So, the less profit there is, the less the company makes, therefore, the less the skilled laborer who you are fighting for makes.

You seem to be confusing the management with the primary investors.

The thing you seem to be missing is that socialism promotes cooperation, while capitalism promotes competition. Cooperation is a superior long term strategy. This has been demonstrated on more than one occasion with mathematics and computer modeling. Check out K. C. Cole's The universe and the Teacup for specific examples.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Tell me, how many IT folks do you know that work 12hrs a day at in an environment where lives are on the line with each step.

By your logic, Ron, we should be paying our soldiers six figures annually. Each.

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[SBS 0]

I am speaking from a business sense, and can't speak to Ford's political and social viewpoints, and certainly not how he spent his money. At no point did I say that he was a stellar human being...just a successful businessman under capitalism.

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You seem to be confusing the management with the primary investors.

Which is something that I addressed in the paragraph that you didn't quote.

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The thing you seem to be missing is that socialism promotes cooperation, while capitalism promotes competition.

So you are suggesting that we become socialists? We can debate theory all day, because we haven't really seen either one in pure practice. Now we're just down to a difference of opinion.

I will read your book.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[jcd11235 0]

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So you are suggesting that we become socialists? We can debate theory all day, because we haven't really seen either one in pure practice. Now we're just down to a difference of opinion.

My suggestion is that both systems have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and neither system works well for all applications. A combination, however, I believe could be effective.

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[Ron 10]

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By your logic, Ron, we should be paying our soldiers six figures annually. Each.

No, they do not pay to get trained for 6-7 years before they get a paycheck.

But paying them a lot would be cool with me...I was one and could have used the cash.

In fact if you want to get rid of welfare and give that money to the service men...even better. Maybe some of the capable will get of their asses and do something.

They have to be willing to work to make their lives better. Servicemen and women are busting their asses for us.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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No, they do not pay to get trained for 6-7 years before they get a paycheck.

You're right, Ron. Now, show me where I showed support for charging medical students for their education. Please.

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[PhillyKev 0]

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But paying them a lot would be cool with me...I was one and could have used the cash.

Since their pay checks come from taxes, i.e. your pay check, why not voluntarily give some of your paycheck to one? Or are you advocating doing what you accuse others of doing, and telling others what should be done with their money?

[Ron 10]

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You're right, Ron. Now, show me where I showed support for charging medical students for their education. Please.

You want to make our medical system socialist and remove the desire to strive for big paychecks for the best and the brightest.

Even if you don't support it, it is still the way it works. Dr's pay to make the big money. It's called INVESTING. Soldiers get paid peanuts to fight for us...Its called SERVICE.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Since their pay checks come from taxes, i.e. your pay check, why not voluntarily give some of your paycheck to one? Or are you advocating doing what you accuse others of doing, and telling others what should be done with their money?

I bet I claim less deductions than you do. The only deduction I ever claim is my 401k. I don't claim my charitable contributions....Do you?

I make enough money, I don't mind paying taxes. I do mind paying taxes so lazy people can sit around watching TV. I do mind paying taxes to try and have the Government run healthcare.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334