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ChasingBlueSky

'Festivus' Shares Space With Fla. Nativity

By ChasingBlueSky, in Speakers Corner

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ChasingBlueSky    0

ChasingBlueSky
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041223/ap_on_re_us/christmas_vs__festivus

By SARA KENNEDY, Associated Press Writer

BARTOW, Fla. - When a church group put a nativity scene on public property, officials warned it might open the door to other religious — and not-so-religious — displays. They were right.

Since the nativity was erected in Polk County, displays have gone up honoring Zoroastrianism and the fake holiday Festivus, featured on the TV show "Seinfeld."

The Polk County Commission voted 4-1 Wednesday to permit the nativity scene to remain across the street from the courthouse, as well as to make that area a "public forum" open to any type of display.

But the commission insisted that unless someone claims a particular display and submits a written request asking it remain, it would be removed. By Wednesday evening, no one had claimed the Festivus display, and the commission said it would come down; a woman claimed the Zoroastrianism display, which was to stay.

The debate began Dec. 15 when a handmade creche with the figures of Joseph, Mary and baby Jesus was erected by a Bible study group from the First Baptist Church of Bartow.

"The real spirit of Christmas is the birth of Christ," said Marvin Pittman, a retired law enforcement officer and parishioner. "We felt it needs to be in the public eye, so we did it."

Other displays are fine, too, he said, adding, "If somebody wants to do that, it's their right."

And true to form, the site almost immediately sprouted alternative displays, including a simple sign that reads: "Festivus for the Rest of Us — Donated to Polk County by the Seinfeld Fan Club."

The display, a reference to the fake holiday featured on an episode of the television sitcom, did not include the totem of Festivus — a bare aluminum pole instead of a tree. Key rituals of Festivus include accusing others of being a disappointment and wrestling.

Another display celebrating Zoroastrianism was erected by Stella Darby, who wanted to encourage people to research the ancient Persian religion.

Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

"The nativity scene is totally celebratory of the birth of Christ," he said. "Not everyone subscribes to that, and those who do should put it on their own property."

But a board member who voted to allow the creche as part of the "public forum" disagreed with Blank. "A group had asked to display a scene important to their beliefs; I felt we shouldn't suppress their right to do so," said Commissioner Samuel K. Johnson.
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Kennedy    0

Kennedy
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Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.



I have never seen or been shown law or SCUS decision that shows a "constitutional separation of church and state." For those who believe it exists, could you please show me where those words are written? I really want to know where the idea comes from.
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jcd11235    0

jcd11235
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For those who believe it exists, could you please show me where those words are written?

Quote

First amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1: Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.



I think the idea comes from the first and fourteenth amendments.
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AndyMan    7

AndyMan
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I have never seen or been shown law or SCUS decision that shows a "constitutional separation of church and state." For those who believe it exists, could you please show me where those words are written?



It's written right beside the one that says Americans have a right to bear arms, of course! ;)

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Kennedy    0

Kennedy
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;



Uh huh, so you're going to tell me that allowing citizens to erect a nativity scene is establishment of religion? Yeah, so let me know when they begin executing people for preaching judaism and islam. :S

I just want to know why you think people exercising another first amendment right, freedom of speech, is so terrible when done on public land. Afterall, even bogus festivals were allowed to be represented. I didn't see anyone saying "this is a christian display, all others are forbidden."

What's the deal? I can say anything I want, as long as I agree with you? Freedom of speech with an asterisk?
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jcd11235    0

jcd11235
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Uh huh, so you're going to tell me that allowing citizens to erect a nativity scene is establishment of religion? Yeah, so let me know when they begin executing people for preaching judaism and islam.



If you don't see the Christian connotations of a nativity scene, then you either don't understand the concept of Christianity, or you don't understand the concept of a nativity scene.

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I just want to know why you think people exercising another first amendment right, freedom of speech, is so terrible when done on public land. Afterall, even bogus festivals were allowed to be represented. I didn't see anyone saying "this is a christian display, all others are forbidden."



I think you don't understand the issue. The public land has been declared a public forum. Christians can have their nativity scene if they want to, but anyone else can also put up displays. Nobody is trying to infringe upon the rights of Christians, as much as you would like to paint them the victim.
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Kennedy    0

Kennedy
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Quote

Uh huh, so you're going to tell me that allowing citizens to erect a nativity scene is establishment of religion? Yeah, so let me know when they begin executing people for preaching judaism and islam.



If you don't see the Christian connotations of a nativity scene, then you either don't understand the concept of Christianity, or you don't understand the concept of a nativity scene.



OK, try to follow this. Allowing a religious group to express their ideas in a public forum (where all others may do so as well) is freedom of speech, not establishment of religion.

Please tell me you can see the vast gap between "no establishment of religion" and your version of "separation of church and state."

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Quote

I just want to know why you think people exercising another first amendment right, freedom of speech, is so terrible when done on public land. Afterall, even bogus festivals were allowed to be represented. I didn't see anyone saying "this is a christian display, all others are forbidden."



I think you don't understand the issue. The public land has been declared a public forum. Christians can have their nativity scene if they want to, but anyone else can also put up displays.



Have any christians popped up to say the other displays shouldn't be allowed? If not, what is "the issue," according to you?

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Nobody is trying to infringe upon the rights of Christians, as much as you would like to paint them the victim.



Really?

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Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.



So I'll ask again. Where is separation of church and state written in the constitution or SCUS decisions?

hint: It's not the same as 'no establishment of religion.'
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jcd11235    0

jcd11235
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Have any christians popped up to say the other displays shouldn't be allowed? If not, what is "the issue," according to you?



I don't have an issue. You asked where seperation of church and state was laid out, and I showed you. Evidently you are the one with the issue, as you are obviously picking a fight, for whatever reason. You should really lighten up.
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Really?


Quote

Richard Blank, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, objected to the nativity scene's presence on public property, arguing it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.



So I'll ask again. Where is separation of church and state written in the constitution or SCUS decisions?



And now they have made it a public forum, so that ALL religions or atheists or anything else can use the land. If only the Christians were allowed to have a display on the public property, that would be wrong. If everyone has the oppurtunity, there should be no problem. Why do you continue to cry foul?

Oh, and seperation of Church and state is still in the first (and fourteenth, indirectly) amemndments, just like last time you asked.
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Kennedy    0

Kennedy
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seperation of Church and state is still in the first (and fourteenth, indirectly) amemndments, just like last time you asked.



First, check This Website. You will find it useful.

Second, please tell me you can see the difference between "there is a complete separation of church and state" and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
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jcd11235    0

jcd11235
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Second, please tell me you can see the difference between "there is a complete separation of church and state" and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



I am not here to give you a remedial reading class. Try forgetting about the trees long enough to see the forest.
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Kennedy    0

Kennedy
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Second, please tell me you can see the difference between "there is a complete separation of church and state" and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



I am not here to give you a remedial reading class. Try forgetting about the trees long enough to see the forest.



Right, everyone knows the words in a law aren't that important, just the most convenient twisting of them. :S

Of course, there's not difference between palm trees and pine trees. I guess they're both the same, live in the same places, feed and protect the same species...

Yup, no significant differences.
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RoadRash    0

RoadRash
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There you go trying to put words in my mouth, again.




No, I believe if you go back to your post...those are your exact words...:D...


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