Ron 10 #26 December 20, 2004 QuoteI don't stand, and I DID serve. What my government is doing right now is disrespectful to those of us who wore a uniform in defense of freedom. Sitting through the national anthem is one way of protesting the actions of the government. And a way to piss on the graves of those that gave you the right to act so badly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #27 December 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI have on my wall a certificate from the Commander of the 82d Airborne. I bet its not his signature on it. A letter of appreciation from your Commander for the time you served is immeasurably less important than a death notification sent to the family of a fallen soldier. I think it should not only be personally signed but also handwritten and hand delivered by someone. Thank you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #28 December 20, 2004 In your opinion. Um, it's actually the opinion of most of America. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 December 20, 2004 QuoteUm, it's actually the opinion of most of America. And so was Bush winning, but you don't let that stop you from bitching about it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 December 20, 2004 Why do you defend every criticism of every aspect of this administration? What duty do you feel to defend callousness and disregard for basic sensitivity? Why do you portray the idea that nothing can be wrong if it is done by this administration? It's amazing. Even this clear and unprecedented lack of compassion for those he is ultimately responsible is ok with you. I'll bet if Rummy sat down with his hat on during the national anthem you'd find an excuse for that, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #31 December 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteUm, it's actually the opinion of most of America. And so was Bush winning, but you don't let that stop you from bitching about it. A president winning and an impersonal death notice to any war, but especially one that is suspect are quite different, but nice avoidance. Also, your comparison shoots yourself in the foot. You are essentially saying that anyone who disagrees about something, and they are on the minority side of, are just bitching. Well, you are bitching about an opinion-based issue where you reside on the minority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 December 20, 2004 QuoteWhy do you defend every criticism of every aspect of this administration? Why do you feel you need to attack it? QuoteIt's amazing. Even this clear and unprecedented lack of compassion for those he is ultimately responsible is ok with you. No, UNDERSTANDABLE. You however want to continue on any witch hunt that involves the current admin."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #33 December 20, 2004 QuoteWhy do you defend every criticism of every aspect of this administration? What duty do you feel to defend callousness and disregard for basic sensitivity? Why do you portray the idea that nothing can be wrong if it is done by this administration? It's amazing. Even this clear and unprecedented lack of compassion for those he is ultimately responsible is ok with you. I'll bet if Rummy sat down with his hat on during the national anthem you'd find an excuse for that, too. My screensaver has a picture of Bush saluting one of those sadistic American songs where you are supposed to place your hand over your heart, probably the national anthem, and he has his hand over his stomache. Maybe it was almost lunch, maybe he just didn't know, maybe he's just a moron, but yoiu should be offended, Ron. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 December 20, 2004 QuoteAlso, your comparison shoots yourself in the foot. You are essentially saying that anyone who disagrees about something, and they are on the minority side of, are just bitching. Well, you are bitching about an opinion-based issue where you reside on the minority. No, cause you bitch about it. I just said my piece about it. I'm not crying about it and making plans to move out of the country over it. BTW if you need help packing let me know."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #35 December 20, 2004 Why do I feel a need to attack it? I guess it's a defense mechanixm since I feel like the gov't is attacking us. This is not understandable to anyone with any sense of decency and compassion. It is especially not understandable to the recipients of those letters. As far as a witch hunt, problem is, these witches are real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #36 December 20, 2004 QuoteYou however want to continue on any witch hunt that involves the current There are a few people in this thread who are not on the anti-administration band wagon... who still think this is piss-poor... I'll admit that I'm anti-rummy and have been for a long time, this just one more straw... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #37 December 20, 2004 Man...partisan politics aside. Rubber stamping death letters is assed up! Shouldn't have anything to do with which political party is represented or if I or anyone else feels like the Democrats or Republicans are being picked on in these forums. This is bigger than that. Whether it was simply an oversight or careless disregard, I don't think it's right. It's a matter of respect. We should all just call it what it is..."fucked up." IN THIS MATTER, Rumsfeld fucked up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #38 December 20, 2004 I agree, and I would be as offended and disheartened no matter who did it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #39 December 20, 2004 QuoteAnd a way to piss on the graves of those that gave you the right to act so badly. Freedom not practiced is not really freedom.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #40 December 21, 2004 Quote Well, I don't see him doing that either, so the least he could do is sign a letter. And what is it exactly that you do "SEE"? What interworkings of his schedule and insight into his methods and strategies are you privy to? What are your solutions? What is it that you would do so different that could make a difference - and how is it that you are better qualified?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #41 December 21, 2004 Nothing to do with the argument here but... What struck me last night was how poorly laid out the letter was. It looked like something someone from junior school might come out with. But again that’s not exactly an indictment on anyone; it sure as hell wasn’t designed by anyone important. As you were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #42 December 21, 2004 Condolences should be personal. Hand delivered via courier or by a shipmate, written and signed by someone directly responsible for the deceased - the Lt or Commander. Higher up in the chain of command, I think a form letter with the typed signature is fine - these guys didn't know the deceased but can still be grateful for the service. But the one that'll provide any ease to the family is the personal one. In this case, then, it's a non-issue. I hope our servicemen are getting something more personal than a SecDef note or equivalent. You those who aren't military, imagine your spouse working for a fortune 500 company. What means more, the flowers sent from HR or the flowers and cards from the co-workers who spent every day with the spouse? Edit: This is a crappy deal in the article. Even though Rummy took the critisism and is now signing personally - that's a good thing people, it's a shame it needed to be highlighted to him in the first place. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #43 December 21, 2004 QuoteAnd what is it exactly that you do "SEE"? What I see is a "best case" approach to planning this operation, and failure to acknowledge that the plan needs adjustment when the troops are not faced with the best case... I see a lot of things going on now that were planned for as far back as 1994 and that were left out of the plan for this operation, specifically the number of forces required (at least 2 more divisions were part of the original plan), and dealing with EPWs and dealing with the civilian population... He thought we would be greated as liberators, well we weren't and there wasn't much change in the approach... He tried to go lean and mean... but that meant that there were not follow-on forces to secre the lines of communication, secure EPWs, and otherwise secure the battlefield, and our guys have been paying the price for it. I don't give a shit what his schedule is, he should be able to find the time to personally sign what amounts to less than 1 letter per day. If he is that busy, than don't bother... I'm pretty sure the company and/or BN commanders (in combat) took the time. QuoteWhat are your solutions? Get the APCs that are sitting in Pre-po stock yards and ships in theater instead of waiting for an armor work around for a vehicle that is being used outside of it intended design. They can be there faster and at less cost. Enough troops, US or otherwise, are needed to secure multiple cities, AT THE SAME TIME. The Marines and Army ran them out of Faluja, now they are in Mosul. The Army will go into Mosul, and where will the bad guys go next, Kirkuk, Tikrit, or slip into Bagdad? All sanctuaries need to be taken away at the same time... You also need to take away any support the population gives, or is forced to give... SF and CA activities are part of that... Security is the other, and in the absence of a meaningful police force, that means troops, US or otherwise. I have never claimed to be better qualified, but I have led troops, and had to deliver bad news to families. Condolences don't mean shit when they come in a form letter with a rubber stamp or automated signature. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #44 December 21, 2004 QuoteYou those who aren't military, imagine your spouse working for a fortune 500 company. What means more, the flowers sent from HR or the flowers and cards from the co-workers who spent every day with the spouse? If my spouse had died due to policy decisions from the CEO of the company, you bet your bottom dollar I would be mightily pissed if all I got from the CEO was a form letter signed by a machine........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 December 21, 2004 QuoteIf my spouse had died due to policy decisions from the CEO of the company, you bet your bottom dollar I would be mightily pissed if all I got from the CEO was a form letter signed by a machine........ Then all of Congress should be signing the letters"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #46 December 21, 2004 QuoteThen all of Congress should be signing the letters Negative, just like in the fortune 500 comparison, the letter should not come from all shareholders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 December 21, 2004 QuoteNegative, just like in the fortune 500 comparison, the letter should not come from all shareholders. Your opinon. Congress voted to use force. They made the choice. The shareholders would be like making the Americans that voted them in sign the letters."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #48 December 21, 2004 QuoteCongress voted to use force. They made the choice. And shareholders vote on important corporate decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #49 December 21, 2004 QuoteCongress voted to use force. They made the choice. Congress authorized the use of force, yes... Rumsfeld was/is responsible for execution, there is a difference. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #50 December 21, 2004 QuoteCongress voted to use force. As a last resort. Which it wasn't.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
