rehmwa 2
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Ron 10
QuoteI find it interesting that you imply proper attire = professionalism.
People do it all the time. They assume that you have to be dressed nice to be important.
We have a joke at work. When someone becomes "Professional" they will do one of two things and we bet on what they do first and when.
They are decorating their office, and buying new clothes.
Sad really, I thought the software engineers lax dress but quality work were well known.
Me? I am wearing jeans, boots and a button shirt today. I only have to dress nice when a big wig is in town. (But my office does look nice)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
rehmwa 2
It's a leftover hangup from the 50's. If someone feels better when they are dressed up, then more power to them, but what usually happens is they can't understand people wired different than them so they pass judgement based on their own perspective only.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Yep...in the real world, dress to impress actually does mean something. Sure, it would be nice if society took the time to get to know the qualities and strengths of every individual, but it ain't gonna happen. Use the tools you have available to get ahead.
Around here when someone upgrades their wardrobe we call it "Client Ready".
Around here when someone upgrades their wardrobe we call it "Client Ready".
Ron 10
Quotebut what usually happens is they can't understand people wired different than them so they pass judgement based on their own perspective only.
Which is why I found it weird that CBS didn't approve...He claims to be about the person and not stereo types.
So unless it just applies to people he approves of.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuoteYep...in the real world, dress to impress actually does mean something
Did you tell that to Gates and Jobs?
Around my office it is produtivity that is measured, not how good you look (good thing for my ugly ass).
Now in your job you may have to deal with customers and their money...But I, and Rummy don't.
And you are telling me that you have never done business in a relaxed manner?
Its pretty common at seminars and trade shows.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
rehmwa 2
Doesn't make it right, Kev - just supports judging someone based on appearance. Nice lazy way to jump to conclusions.
We should exactly do what you say no one has time to - "it would be nice if society took the time to get to know the qualities and strengths of every individual, but it ain't gonna happen"
And it would happen if we just started doing it.
(Isn't someone here going to get irate and extrapolate to the whole "what if they don't bathe and stick and have lice....yadda.... what would you do?" comment. I won't bother answering that one. It's a misdirect.
Edit: as far as dreads, piercing, etc and suits and ties etc. I have no issue with business establishing dress codes provided they live with the consequences of losing a chunk of the potential hiring pool.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
We should exactly do what you say no one has time to - "it would be nice if society took the time to get to know the qualities and strengths of every individual, but it ain't gonna happen"
And it would happen if we just started doing it.
(Isn't someone here going to get irate and extrapolate to the whole "what if they don't bathe and stick and have lice....yadda.... what would you do?" comment. I won't bother answering that one. It's a misdirect.
Edit: as far as dreads, piercing, etc and suits and ties etc. I have no issue with business establishing dress codes provided they live with the consequences of losing a chunk of the potential hiring pool.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I'm wearing jeans and a flannel right now. We're casual all week for the holiday. We're casual on Fridays. Wear khakis and polos during the week usually, when a client's coming in, where slacks, oxford, and a tie.
Hell, 3 years ago my hair was down to my ass.
I was referring to the fact that grrooming and attire have a big impact on impressions. It's a fact, you can deny it all you want. In my office, we all know each other and therefore, don't need to impress each other. But when someone is coming into the office who doesn't know everyone on a personal level and their abilities and strengths, it is beneficial to give a good visual impression. Argue with the merits of it all you want, but it's the way the world and the human psyche works.
Hell, 3 years ago my hair was down to my ass.
I was referring to the fact that grrooming and attire have a big impact on impressions. It's a fact, you can deny it all you want. In my office, we all know each other and therefore, don't need to impress each other. But when someone is coming into the office who doesn't know everyone on a personal level and their abilities and strengths, it is beneficial to give a good visual impression. Argue with the merits of it all you want, but it's the way the world and the human psyche works.
rehmwa 2
If this is turning into a "what are you wearing now?" type of thread, then I'm putting in a request to move it to Bonfire.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteWe should exactly do what you say no one has time to - "it would be nice if society took the time to get to know the qualities and strengths of every individual, but it ain't gonna happen"
And it would happen if we just started doing it.
So you're telling me than when a business client walks into an office of several hundred people, he should sit down with every employee down to the mail room clerk to get to know them?
Look, I agree, judging people based on appearance is half assed. But it happens. I used to rebel against that. But you know what? It's not really that hard to look nice, and doesn't hurt all that much after you get used to it.
If you saw two cars, one was rusted out and crappy and dirty, and the other shiney and new, you're going to be automatically biased toward the shiney car. But the other one might be a sleeper that would blow the doors off the other. Sure, if you watch the two race, you'll change your initial impression. But if you don't, you'll go on your merry way thinking the shiney new car was the better of the two.
Ron 10
QuoteI was referring to the fact that grrooming and attire have a big impact on impressions. It's a fact, you can deny it all you want.
Who is denying it?
I am saying that some are slamming a guy for wearing a Tshirt and sitting by a pool.
He can still be having a meeting while in a Tshirt in a nice place.
Are you telling me that you have never been at a trade show or conference and had a meeting in less than a 3 piece suit?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteI find it interesting that you imply proper attire = professionalism.
Funny, I equate professionalism with how one works with their co-workers, the quality in which they conduct their work, and the focus on doing the right thing. Nothing to do with which room one works in or what kind of cloths they wear. I've always thought of those as pointless hangups with no real value added.
Dress for success. Old tradition but true, and is not outdated just because it is old. Your outward appearance in biz can and will be interpreted as a reflection of your work ethic and professionalism. I no longer dress in a suit like I did when I worked at IBM, but I always dress in a professional manner. Jeans or shorts are not professional. I deal with people on a daily basis - I doubt they would buy what I am selling if was in jeans or looking like I was headed out to the bar. Also, anyone that comes to me under dressed will never get hired by me or get my recommendation.
Edit to add: My productivity can easily be measured via the metrics of my profession - not what I wear. Do my clothes effect my numbers? Nope. However, the image is necessary.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
QuoteAre you telling me that you have never been at a trade show or conference and had a meeting in less than a 3 piece suit?
Nope, and you'll notice I didn't say anything about this story either. Because, to me, it's a non story.
turtlespeed 226
Quote
Are you telling me that you have never been at a trade show or conference and had a meeting in less than a 3 piece suit?
Once upon a time - buisnesss was actually conducted with scruples and integrity.
A handshake was was as good as a corporate seal, and buisness was discussed, and agreed upon, and contracts were "signed" whilst playing a game of golf.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
Ron 10
QuoteNope, and you'll notice I didn't say anything about this story either
NEVER? Wow. You need ot get out more
QuoteBecause, to me, it's a non story.
OK but you replied IN this thread about a subject OF this thread.
I see it as a non-issue since I have had meetings in relaxed places with relaxed dress codes.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
rehmwa 2
QuoteSo you're telling me than when a business client walks into an office of several hundred people, he should sit down with every employee down to the mail room clerk to get to know them?.
nonsense, just don't preconceive based on those you don't interact with. Do you really think a business client makes a big decision based on what a mail clerk is wearing instead of the product being offered? nuts
CBS - so now you are equating 'dress' = 'success'? How about income? How about a good marketable product? How about satisfied customers?
Like I said, dress however it takes to perform better, and hire based on whatever criteria you want. But admit it when your bias is not substantive.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Quotenonsense, just don't preconceive based on those you don't interact with. Do you really think a business client makes a big decision based on what a mail clerk is wearing instead of the product being offered? nuts
I think if a client is making a decision between two companies, both who are equal in all other ways, his visual impressions of the employees can definitely have an impact.
QuoteLike I said, dress however it takes to perform better, and hire based on whatever criteria you want. But admit it when your bias is not substantive.
It's not my bias. It's my recognition in the often unconscious bias of others. And taking advantage of every opportunity to get an a leg up over competitors.
jdhill 0
Quotebut I always dress in a professional manner. Jeans or shorts are not professional. I deal with people on a daily basis - I doubt they would buy what I am selling if was in jeans or looking like I was headed out to the bar. Also, anyone that comes to me under dressed will never get hired by me or get my recommendation.
Say you were on a business trip, with your co-workers, not clients... say you want to have an informal discussion with the group (again, no clients), say over breakfast on the pooldeck, a few hours before you had to be anywhere... would you ware shorts and a t-shirt, or kakhis and golf shirt?
What if the picture was Ridge sitting by the pool in a suit? I'll bet a lot of the comments would sound something like, "What a stuffed shirt that guy is, he can't even relax in Hawaii"
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
jdhill 0
QuoteI think if a client is making a decision between two companies, both who are equal in all other ways, his visual impressions of the employees can definitely have an impact.
How one dresses in front of clients or customers can be different than how one dresses in an informal setting with internal associates.
In my firm, you can tell who is asking for something, us or the visitor, by who is wearing the suit.
J
rehmwa 2
QuoteIt's not my bias. It's my recognition in the often unconscious bias of others.
No, you've allowed assumed perception of another's bias (by shortchanging that other person's ability to cast unbiased judgment) to turn that into a personal bias - even for clients you've never met yet. That speaks of little regard for the judgment of others in general - another "unconscious bias" as it were. I don't think you're really that way - just fatalistic about this subject.
Next Washington Post Header - Rummy installs office in armored HumVee parks in DC swimming pool parking lot - signs letters while crying all over his tuxedo.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Funny, I equate professionalism with how one works with their co-workers, the quality in which they conduct their work, and the focus on doing the right thing. Nothing to do with which room one works in or what kind of cloths they wear. I've always thought of those as pointless hangups with no real value added.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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