ltdiver 3 #1 December 19, 2004 An historic report here. I'd much rather use -this- product to heal damaged bodies than what has been trying to push itself through our legislature this past decade. We have plenty of this product here in American, too! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6727466/ ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #2 December 19, 2004 Amazing. Ausgezeichnet fur die Deutschen! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 December 19, 2004 Yeah, grown bone is cool but this is what I'm excited about. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/10441212.htmquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #4 December 19, 2004 Yes, I know all about this study. The rats were able to 'walk' in some kind of fashion, but it was akward and almost dragging in it's gait pattern. Still it was/is impressive. However, don't discount this new find on adult stem cells. How cool would it be to find that a bit of damaged spinal cord could be taken and mixed with fat stem cells and placed back inside the human spine....and to see a paraplegic get up and 'walk' 2 weeks later. Many benefits, including not having to fight the ethics issue at all! It would pass by our legislature in a flash! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #5 December 19, 2004 QuoteMany benefits, including not having to fight the ethics issue at all! It would pass by our legislature in a flash! The ethics issue is manufactured. The embryos are currently frozen, and will either be used for stem cell research, or disposed of. Its not as though embryos are being produced in order to harvest stem cells. Sure, adult stem cells have proven to be useful, but they do not show the same promise of embrionic stem cells.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #6 December 19, 2004 Look, I fixed it for you. QuoteIts not as though embryos are being produced in order to harvest stem cells, yet. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #7 December 19, 2004 QuoteLook, I fixed it for you. Didn't need your correction. Thanks, though.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 December 19, 2004 Quote Look, I fixed it for you. QuoteIts not as though embryos are being produced in order to harvest stem cells, yet. There's never going to be a shortage of planned abortions to meet this need, so let's not get ahead of ourselves with such red herrings. Shutting down these avenues of research for that reason is rather absurd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 1 #9 December 20, 2004 According to one of my clients here in New Zealand, who we will be building a rehab centre for, research is going on into stem cells harvested from the nose and cornea. If this pans out the ethical discussion about embrionic stem cells will become academic!Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #10 December 20, 2004 >Its not as though embryos are being produced in order to harvest >stem cells, yet. The discussion is somewhat academic. If embryonic stem cell research is outlawed in the US, then it will go on in Sweden, or Germany, or Finland. And when there is a cure for spinal cord injury, then it will be approved for use in the US. No senator/congressman will be able to withstand the 7-year-old-in-the-wheelchair ads that will be used against him. It's already happening; people who are against abortion in theory are traveling abroad to have outlawed procedures attempted. If they ever become medically effective, nothing will stop the tide. http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1363339,00.html ----------------------- Among them is Van Golden, a Christian, anti-abortion Texan who has sold his house so that he can travel to communist, atheist China and have Huang inject a million cells from the nasal area of a foetus into his spine. According to Golden's doctors, his spine was damaged beyond repair in a car crash last Christmas. The damage to his nervous system was so bad that he has been in a wheelchair and racked by spasms ever since. But Golden refused to give up, even if it meant having to compromise his values. "This is the only place that offered us any hope," he says. "Everyone else offered only to help make me sufficient in that chair. But the chair is not my destiny. It is not ordained." ---------------------- Of course, the best outcome is that a procedure that does _not_ require fetal stem cells is developed, as implied by the original article on this thread. Then you get the benefits without the moral dilemmas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #11 December 20, 2004 QuoteThe ethics issue is manufactured. The embryos are currently frozen, and will either be used for stem cell research, or disposed of. Sorry. I don't agree with you. Killing is killing, no matter where the embryos come from. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #12 December 20, 2004 QuoteSorry. I don't agree with you. Killing is killing, no matter where the embryos come from. ltdiver No apology necessary. My point is not whether or not it is killing. The embryos are going to be "killed" regardless. Why shouldn't we use them for research, with the donors' permissions if necessary?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #13 December 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteSorry. I don't agree with you. Killing is killing, no matter where the embryos come from. ltdiver No apology necessary. My point is not whether or not it is killing. The embryos are going to be "killed" regardless. Why shouldn't we use them for research, with the donors' permissions if necessary? I'm not apologizing. I'm stating what I believe to be fact. For me, either method would be killing. Period. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #14 December 20, 2004 QuoteI'm not apologizing. I'm stating what I believe to be fact. For me, either method would be killing. Period. My mistake. I have this nasty habit of associating the word sorry with an apology. What do you suggest as an alternative? Indefinite storage?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #15 December 20, 2004 QuoteThe discussion is somewhat academic. If embryonic stem cell research is outlawed in the US, then it will go on in Sweden, or Germany, or Finland. This is interesting logic. If something is legal in another country and will occur whether we decide to or not, we should follow suit regardless of whether it be considered right or wrong. Another countries decision to perform an act eliminates our obligation to medical ethics since someone somewhere will inevitably do it anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #16 December 20, 2004 >If something is legal in another country and will occur whether we decide >to or not, we should follow suit regardless of whether it be considered >right or wrong. Not at all! It's not a question of "should." It's a question of "will." I'm sure you can think of many practices which are legal (or which will be legal in the future) that are not moral (in your opinion) but are done nevertheless. >Another countries decision to perform an act eliminates our obligation to >medical ethics since someone somewhere will inevitably do it anyway. The ability to save a 7 year old's life (or the ability to allow her to walk again) will trump the killing of a frozen embryo from the standpoint of practicality. It has little to do with morals. It's like the line from My Fair Lady: Higgins: Have you no morals, man? Eliza's father: Morals? Can't afford 'em, guvn'r. Regardless of whether or not it is morally right or not, the 7 year old will have a lot of advocates (her parents, her friends, her representatives) that the embryo will not. It's like someone who fervently believes in not killing people faced with a man breaking into his house. His desire to protect himself and his family will oftern overcome his moral stand, because he has a very immediate and personal need to protect his family. And if two parents can save their child's life with an embryo? They are likely to overcome their morals and push for the procedure, just as the man in my example did. The love of parents for their children is a very powerful force, one that most morals will not withstand. All this begs the question of whether it _should_ be legal - I am not addressing that. But it _will_ most likely be legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #17 December 21, 2004 Quote There's never going to be a shortage of planned abortions to meet this need . . . . And the world doesn't see a problem with this?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 December 21, 2004 I think this is pretty clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #19 December 21, 2004 Is that really how you feel?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 December 21, 2004 Yes....all of my personal opinions are garnered from tshirt slogans drafted to be as politically incorrect and offensive as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #21 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteSorry. I don't agree with you. Killing is killing, no matter where the embryos come from. ltdiver No apology necessary. My point is not whether or not it is killing. The embryos are going to be "killed" regardless. Why shouldn't we use them for research, with the donors' permissions if necessary? I'm not apologizing. I'm stating what I believe to be fact. For me, either method would be killing. Period. ltdiver The embryonic stem cell debate often focuses on abortion. Another supply of stem cells comes from in vitro fertilization. The embryos that are not chosen for implantation are often discarded but can be used as a stem cell supply. I wonder if people tend to draw the same moral lines around the use of these embryos. I'm fairly certain that there are a lot of anti-abortion folks who would not advocate so strongly against in vitro fertilization lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 December 21, 2004 Quote>... The discussion is somewhat academic. If embryonic stem cell research is outlawed in the US, then it will go on in Sweden, or Germany, or Finland. .... Confused here, I haven't been following the issue but I thought the issue was whether or to use public funds, not outlawing the research altogether. I don't recall the current admin taking any position other than letting the private sector fund the research on the remaining stem cells (or letting state or local governments deal with it locally, like Cali). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #23 December 21, 2004 QuoteI don't recall the current admin taking any position other than letting the private sector fund the research on the remaining stem cells (or letting state or local governments deal with it locally, like Cali). And banning the gathering of any new embryonic stem cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #24 December 21, 2004 In this instance I was unsure if the posting of that shirt was facetious or serious. There are those out there that actually DO use that as their mantra.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #25 December 21, 2004 QuoteIn this instance I was unsure if the posting of that shirt was facetious or serious. There are those out there that actually DO use that as their mantra. Bull shit....that's scare tactics used by the religious right claiming that allowing stem cell research will lead to more abortions. No one is farming babies for stem cells. If you believe that, you've been duped. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
