jcd11235 0 #26 December 21, 2004 QuoteNow WHY would that happen, do you think? Would it be fair to say that Bill Clinton should be compared to Stalin and Deng Xiaoping as well? If you can find obvious parallels, like can be found with Shrub and Stalin, go right ahead.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #27 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnyone who suggests that Stalin is a "fine" man, or that Bush is the equivalent of Stalin, has zero credibility. I'll say it. I established a thread to discuss that very thing. Feel free to join in. "have we become what we fear?" To answer your question: No. How do I know? Because you are allowed to make or draw a comparison of a man responsible for killing in upwards of 50,000,000 people during his reign to my President who has freed in upwards of 30,000,000 people who were under the rule of despots like Stalin. If you see a common thread, fine, but I think it's pretty disturbing that you could. ... ... apples and oranges. Stalin did more to eliminate the Nazis than any other wartime leader, even if he came to it unwillingly. That's not true. Stalin whined for years for US involvement, and was practically crying for an invasion by the allies years ahead of when it did. The Battle of the Bulge was fought by US troops, not the Russians (the single biggest battle of the war, following the single biggest amphibious invasion). Never mind the day-time bombing missions flown by...oh yeah...US! Plus US pilots supplementing UK pilots during the battle of Britain. Russia was in Africa too...not, that was US! All while Russia was fighting a second front against Japan...oh wait, they weren't. That was US. Stalin threw waves of "Operation Human Shields" at the Nazis. When he was done, he killed millions more by himself.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #28 December 21, 2004 QuoteNo one is claiming they are carbon copies of one another. Again, read the first link on the first post of the "Have we become what we fear?" thread. I say no. Because you are able to freely express your opinion. That couldn't be done in Iraq, Afghanistan, USSR years ago. You still can't in some cases in Germany, France and Canada (although Canada's Constitution "protects" freedom of speech in the press). QuoteI don't know how to break this to you, but Shrub has not liberated anyone. He has just changed from one U.S. installed government in Iraq to another. Thousands have been killed, and many more will die of cancer, with radiation exposures lasting much longer than this war, which is a violation of Geneva Convention on Human Rights. Wonder why Shrub won't join the World Court? And the elections just held in Afghanistan were a sham? The elections to be held in a little over a month in Iraq will prove you incorrect I think. QuoteAnd, don't forget, Stalinwas our ally. He contributed far more than the U.S. when it came to stopping Hitler. So don't tell me that Something good Shrub has done balances out his FUBAR leadership. Stalin was the enemy of our enemy, nothing more. Stalin despised Churchill and wanted nothing to do with the US other than see us throw the waves of bodies he was throwing around.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #29 December 21, 2004 QuoteAnd the elections just held in Afghanistan were a sham? The elections to be held in a little over a month in Iraq will prove you incorrect I think. It is appalling to think that some people actually believe you can force democracy upon a culture, and that you can have fair elections amid violent civil unrest. That is mobocracy, at best. QuoteI say no. Because you are able to freely express your opinion. That couldn't be done in Iraq, Afghanistan, USSR years ago. You still can't in some cases in Germany, France and Canada (although Canada's Constitution "protects" freedom of speech in the press). Sorry. Shrub's actions speak louder than words. I cannot give much credibility to a president who won't allow protesters within his line of sight, or one that has allowed such protesters to be arrested, in order to avoid having to acknowledging them to be responsible citizens trying to peacefully get out a message. What is Shrub afraid of? QuoteFor the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Papadopoulos’s Greece, Pinochet’s Chile, and Suharto’s Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible. . . . 1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. 2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. 3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. . 4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. 5. Rampant sexism. 6. A controlled mass media. 7. Obsession with national security. . 8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. 9. Power of corporations protected. . 10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. 11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. 12. Obsession with crime and punishment. 13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. 14. Fraudulent elections. http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm I see most all of these, and I don't like what that indicates. What is even more frightening, though, is the number of people who are unable to see these characteristics as a problem.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #30 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteAnd the elections just held in Afghanistan were a sham? The elections to be held in a little over a month in Iraq will prove you incorrect I think. Quote It is appalling to think that some people actually believe you can force democracy upon a culture, and that you can have fair elections amid violent civil unrest. That is mobocracy, at best. QuoteI say no. Because you are able to freely express your opinion. That couldn't be done in Iraq, Afghanistan, USSR years ago. You still can't in some cases in Germany, France and Canada (although Canada's Constitution "protects" freedom of speech in the press). Sorry. Shrub's actions speak louder than words. I cannot give much credibility to a president who won't allow protesters within his line of sight, or one that has allowed such protesters to be arrested, in order to avoid having to acknowledging them to be responsible citizens trying to peacefully get out a message. What is Shrub afraid of? ***For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Papadopoulos’s Greece, Pinochet’s Chile, and Suharto’s Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible. . . . Since this is Lawrence Britts little fantasy, lets go step by step. Quote1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Here Dr. Britt confuses Nationalism for Patriotism. Using Nazi Germany as an example, it wasn't love of country, it was love of race and culture. Big difference. Hitler didn't care about the jews and the goal was ethnic cleansing. Could you tell me which race in America has been targeted for extermination? So we were attacked and responded with increased Patriotism. What would you expect? Quote2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Ah, the Patriot Act. I'm still trying to figure out how this is different that point # 12. Quote3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. . This would suggest that the "enemies" were innocent and were being used unfairly to the unifying cause which is Patriotism? Please explain. Quote4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. "Avid militarism" wasn't one of Britts original claims. In Germany, Italy and Chile, military service was mandatory. A true fascist regime wouldn't care about avid militarism as they would conscript young people to serve and then endoctrinate them. Please explain how this is happening. Quote5. Rampant sexism. This is really stupid because sexism is a relatively new concept and supposedly Britt looked at fascist regimes from the past. Are you actually claiming GWB is a sexist? Quote6. A controlled mass media. Ah..Fox News. How about CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, BBC etc. This is the dumbest one yet. Please explain how the government is trying to controll the media. Quote7. Obsession with national security. . I see, protecting ourselves from terrorist attacks is an obssession? These are getting dumber and dumber but I'll try one more. Quote8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. *** I'm sorry with the recent lawsuits instituted by the ACLU, I can't stop laughing about this one. O.K. one more. Quote9. Power of corporations protected. . As opposed to the well oiled government that would result from a mutually harmful business/government relationship? That’s not fascism. In fact, if you look at Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and Pinochet, you’ll see that it wasn’t big business that put them in power. For Pinochet, it was a military coup. For Franco, it was a civil war (which you could also call a coup). Mussolini and Hitler rose to power because their countries were in political and economic turmoil. They promised prosperity for all (hardly the call of a capitalist), and were lauded for putting “a chicken in every pot” and “making the trains run on time”. Remember, both Mussolini and Hitler’s parties started out as extremist movements, and big business will never support extremism. There’s not enough money to be made by catering to the fringe. QuoteI see most all of these, and I don't like what that indicates. What is even more frightening, though, is the number of people who are unable to see these characteristics as a problem. I think whats frightening is people who are frightened by this crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #31 December 22, 2004 QuoteHere Dr. Britt confuses Nationalism for Patriotism. In this context, the two words are interchangeable. Might you be thinking of a nationalized economy, ie. socialism? That would be different than patriotism. QuoteAh, the Patriot Act. I'm still trying to figure out how this is different that point # 12. Or how about how we don't care about any suffering nations that don't have oil? Do you really believe we would be fighting in the middle east if they exported bananas insteadf of oil? Be realistic. QuoteThis would suggest that the "enemies" were innocent and were being used unfairly to the unifying cause which is Patriotism? Please explain. We used to be taught to fear the commies, but now we are taught to fear the terrorists. How has our involvement in Iraq affected the rate of terrorism worldwide? It has done nothing but magnify the problem. The anti-terrorism is just another way to indoctrine people to be intolerant of difference, ie. nationalism. Quote"Avid militarism" wasn't one of Britts original claims. In Germany, Italy and Chile, military service was mandatory. A true fascist regime wouldn't care about avid militarism as they would conscript young people to serve and then endoctrinate them. Please explain how this is happening. You have seen the increase in military spending over the past couple of years, right? You've been awake? You want to deny things don't exist if they don't exist in the extreme. No, our entire economy is not yet geared toward the war machine. QuoteThis is really stupid because sexism is a relatively new concept and supposedly Britt looked at fascist regimes from the past. Are you actually claiming GWB is a sexist? Refer to above comment about extremes. What's the male:female ratio in Congress? Cabinet? Supreme Court? Because, when I go out and about, they appear to make up about half the population. Quote Ah..Fox News. How about CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, BBC etc. This is the dumbest one yet. Please explain how the government is trying to controll the media. Freedom of the press doesn't mean much if the media has few players. Corporations are not known for being objective, or responsible. And anything else is automatically labeled as "liberal press." Sorry, objective reporting, although it is not lost, as been so thouroughly mixed with propaganda that it is often very difficult to distinguish between the two. QuoteI see, protecting ourselves from terrorist attacks is an obssession? These are getting dumber and dumber but I'll try one more. And what was that "terrorist link" to Iraq again? Why are we there? What threat was posed? Oh, I'm sorry. Those questions have already been avoided. QuoteAs opposed to the well oiled government that would result from a mutually harmful business/government relationship? That’s not fascism. In fact, if you look at Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and Pinochet, you’ll see that it wasn’t big business that put them in power. For Pinochet, it was a military coup. For Franco, it was a civil war (which you could also call a coup). Mussolini and Hitler rose to power because their countries were in political and economic turmoil. They promised prosperity for all (hardly the call of a capitalist), and were lauded for putting “a chicken in every pot” and “making the trains run on time”. Remember, both Mussolini and Hitler’s parties started out as extremist movements, and big business will never support extremism. There’s not enough money to be made by catering to the fringe. Again, you are trying to imply that everything has to be a carbon copy of a previous fascist regime. Just a little while ago you were complaining about how Europe sat back and let Hitler come to power. Now, a similar thing happens in America, but in a distinctly American way, and you want to sit back and allow it. Do you realize how many corporate tax loopholes there actually are? QuoteI'm sorry with the recent lawsuits instituted by the ACLU, I can't stop laughing about this one. O.K. one more. It is difficult for me to distinguish between the Bus fans and the Christian Right. Did you need to see the knots? I think the guy was using "tied" metaphorically Apples and apple blossoms.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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jcd11235 0 #31 December 22, 2004 QuoteHere Dr. Britt confuses Nationalism for Patriotism. In this context, the two words are interchangeable. Might you be thinking of a nationalized economy, ie. socialism? That would be different than patriotism. QuoteAh, the Patriot Act. I'm still trying to figure out how this is different that point # 12. Or how about how we don't care about any suffering nations that don't have oil? Do you really believe we would be fighting in the middle east if they exported bananas insteadf of oil? Be realistic. QuoteThis would suggest that the "enemies" were innocent and were being used unfairly to the unifying cause which is Patriotism? Please explain. We used to be taught to fear the commies, but now we are taught to fear the terrorists. How has our involvement in Iraq affected the rate of terrorism worldwide? It has done nothing but magnify the problem. The anti-terrorism is just another way to indoctrine people to be intolerant of difference, ie. nationalism. Quote"Avid militarism" wasn't one of Britts original claims. In Germany, Italy and Chile, military service was mandatory. A true fascist regime wouldn't care about avid militarism as they would conscript young people to serve and then endoctrinate them. Please explain how this is happening. You have seen the increase in military spending over the past couple of years, right? You've been awake? You want to deny things don't exist if they don't exist in the extreme. No, our entire economy is not yet geared toward the war machine. QuoteThis is really stupid because sexism is a relatively new concept and supposedly Britt looked at fascist regimes from the past. Are you actually claiming GWB is a sexist? Refer to above comment about extremes. What's the male:female ratio in Congress? Cabinet? Supreme Court? Because, when I go out and about, they appear to make up about half the population. Quote Ah..Fox News. How about CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, BBC etc. This is the dumbest one yet. Please explain how the government is trying to controll the media. Freedom of the press doesn't mean much if the media has few players. Corporations are not known for being objective, or responsible. And anything else is automatically labeled as "liberal press." Sorry, objective reporting, although it is not lost, as been so thouroughly mixed with propaganda that it is often very difficult to distinguish between the two. QuoteI see, protecting ourselves from terrorist attacks is an obssession? These are getting dumber and dumber but I'll try one more. And what was that "terrorist link" to Iraq again? Why are we there? What threat was posed? Oh, I'm sorry. Those questions have already been avoided. QuoteAs opposed to the well oiled government that would result from a mutually harmful business/government relationship? That’s not fascism. In fact, if you look at Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and Pinochet, you’ll see that it wasn’t big business that put them in power. For Pinochet, it was a military coup. For Franco, it was a civil war (which you could also call a coup). Mussolini and Hitler rose to power because their countries were in political and economic turmoil. They promised prosperity for all (hardly the call of a capitalist), and were lauded for putting “a chicken in every pot” and “making the trains run on time”. Remember, both Mussolini and Hitler’s parties started out as extremist movements, and big business will never support extremism. There’s not enough money to be made by catering to the fringe. Again, you are trying to imply that everything has to be a carbon copy of a previous fascist regime. Just a little while ago you were complaining about how Europe sat back and let Hitler come to power. Now, a similar thing happens in America, but in a distinctly American way, and you want to sit back and allow it. Do you realize how many corporate tax loopholes there actually are? QuoteI'm sorry with the recent lawsuits instituted by the ACLU, I can't stop laughing about this one. O.K. one more. It is difficult for me to distinguish between the Bus fans and the Christian Right. Did you need to see the knots? I think the guy was using "tied" metaphorically Apples and apple blossoms.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
