Ohio Incident

[Kennedy 0]

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Perhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation.

Armed Citizen reports come out monthly.
You can see them online at
http://www.nrapublications.org/armed%20citizen/index.asp
or
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/
or there are archived listings (that site is only this months top stories)

Self defense is also commonly documented here:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/default.asp
(along with cop injustices and gun legislation)

There are countless instances of people defending themselves. There are also stories of CCW holders restraining themselves. Even here on dz.com I've seen instances where one guy said he confronted an asshole, and CCW holding posters told him that was the wrong thing to do (especially if he was carrying).

Just because you don't read about it in the Times doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I read Brady and VPC releases. Do you read NRA and GOA releases to temper your own position and gather information from both sides?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not.

So then you're against the law that prohibits all CCW holders from carrying in all bars? Afterall, that takes the choice away from the private business owner, doesn't it?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Shotgun 1]

Thanks... those are actually relevant stories. The Ohio incident is pretty much irrelevant because any alternative outcome is nothing but speculation... and the outcome could have easily turned out to show that allowing concealed weapons in a bar is a bad thing. (Also, I don't always believe what some random stranger writes in an online message board. I've read quite a few accounts from people who were supposedly there and many of them contradict each other - so I don't take this guy's story to necessarily be fact, including his assessment of whether he could have helped. For all I know, he's some deranged person who wasn't even there and doesn't even have a CCW - who knows...)

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Do you read NRA and GOA releases to temper your own position and gather information from both sides?

Yes, I always try to read as much from both extreme sides on any controversial issue. The gun issue is one that I'm pretty much in the middle about. I can see both sides of the issue, but I don't see a clear solution. I don't particularly want everyone carrying guns everywhere, but I believe that a complete ban on guns would mean that only dangerous criminals would have them - and then the law-abiding citizens would not have much of a way to protect themselves. So I find it pretty difficult to see what the best solution is...

[Shotgun 1]

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I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not.

So then you're against the law that prohibits all CCW holders from carrying in all bars? Afterall, that takes the choice away from the private business owner, doesn't it?

Yeah, I think it should be up to the bar owner. But I still think allowing guns in a bar is a bad idea, so I wouldn't go to any bars that allowed guns. (But my guess is that most bar owners would choose not to allow them - escpecially in clubs where they have rowdy metal fans slam-dancing all over the place.)

[PhillyKev 0]

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I wouldn't go to any bars that allowed guns

Better not leave California before doing your homework, then. 34 states allow CCW holder to carry in places that serve alcohol. [sarcasm] You can probably pick them out by the blood trails at the door [/sarcam]

[Shotgun 1]

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34 states allow CCW holder to carry in places that serve alcohol.

Wow, I didn't know that. I don't spend much time in bars anyway... Are you referring to actual bars or just restaurants that serve alcohol? (I ask because people usually tend to get rowdier in an actual bar than in a restaurant, well except for skydivers maybe. ) I'm from Texas, and I believe the law there allows guns to be carried in restaurants but not in bars or liquor stores (or anywhere that alcohol is the main purpose of the business). But obviously I'm no expert on the gun laws, so I could be very wrong about that (and I don't have time to look it up right now).

Do you have a list of the 34 states that allow CCW holder to carry in bars (and if the law does include actual bars)???

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[sarcasm] You can probably pick them out by the blood trails at the door [/sarcam]

No, that would probably just lead me to the horribly dangerous grocery stores and retail stores that Ron mentioned earlier.

[PhillyKev 0]

I'm not sure what the mix is, some of those 34 have rules like "no more than 50% of sales can be alcohol related". Others don't have any such distinction.

You can find out about all the different gun laws at http://www.packing.org/

But that's the point I was making earlier in the thread. People are all upset about the prospect of allowing guns in bars, without realizing that they are already allowed in many places with a very miniscule number of problems.

[Shotgun 1]

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People are all upset about the prospect of allowing guns in bars, without realizing that they are already allowed in many places with a very miniscule number of problems.

I see a "bar" and a "restaurant that serves alcohol" as two different things (as I mentioned before), so knowing that information would make a big difference in determining how many states allow guns in bars and how often that has caused a problem. Though, from something else that I read (not sure if it's true), when a shooting incident happens it is not required to report whether the shooter had a CCW - so (if that's true) that makes it pretty hard to have any idea whether it is causing a problem or not.

And the thread was started about one particular bar that I am guessing had a pretty rowdy crowd (if it was anything like the crowds at the many Pantera shows I've been to). Regardless of this one freak incident, I would feel a lot less safe going to such a venue knowing that some members of that crowd were carrying concealed weapons. That's a much different scenario than carrying a concealed weapon into the local Sizzler where people might be having a beer with dinner (not that I particularly think that's a great idea either, but it seems far less dangerous than the rowdy bar scenario).

[PhillyKev 0]

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Regardless of this one freak incident, I would feel a lot less safe going to such a venue knowing that some members of that crowd were carrying concealed weapons.

How do you know people aren't carrying in bars that you go to now? I presume you would have assumed no one would have a gun at that particular show as well.

[Shotgun 1]

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How do you know people aren't carrying in bars that you go to now?

I don't... but that doesn't change my opinion that it's a bad idea.

And I imagine this incident (and especially if similar incidents eventually occur) will change the way such bars run their security (and I doubt they will come to the conclusion that having armed patrons is the solution - having police onsite would be more likely). The last few Pantera shows I went to had very tight security - had my bag searched and got frisked before entering the building. I don't know if they had similar security at this show, but obviously it wouldn't have done much good since the guy was able to jump over a fence to get in.

[Botellines 0]

Sorry for the late response, but i was writting Santa´s letter (I have asked for an absolute ban of guns worldwide)

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How do you enforce this? Do you pass a law that they voluntarily have to identify themselves?

Yes, either that or you leave your toy at home. If you don´t comply, you broke the law.

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How would that be any different than passing a law that they voluntarily not drink while carrying?

Much better if the law prohibits carrying while drinking/drunk.

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Do you think one would be more effective than the other?

Yes, one of them (the first) is much easier to enforce than the other one, both moneywise and timewise.

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Right now the ban says you must not enter this establishment with a firearm. They rely on people to voluntarily abide by that rule.

The law is not voluntary, if you break the law, you pay the consecuences. You are free to decide wether you want to take the risk of being caught. That is why it is necesary to enforce whatever law you may pass and why the first law above will work better than the second.

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So, none of these laws are talking about strip searching people whether it's when they go out in public, enter a bar, or order a drink. They all rely on people's adherance to the law.

Like all the laws out there, they are based on self restriction for fear of the consequences. Should we ditch the law that sais that you cannot kill because it also relies on people´s adherance?

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Now....tell me, based on that premise, who would be in violation of the law.

With the first law above, whoever carries a weapon in a bar without declaring it, with the second, whoever caries a weapon when intoxicated or in the proccess of becoming

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If you pass the law that you can't drink while you carry, then anyone who drinks while they carry is a criminal. And that's what we're trying to prevent, right?

If you pass the law that you can't carry while in the bar, you're going to have criminalized those who are drinking and not drinking. Why? We all agree drinking and carrying is a potential problem. Seems to me that is where you set the legal line. What am I missing?

Thinking yesterday about this whole incident, made me think about a very possible scenario that i don´t think it has been discussed.
There was one guy with a CCW very close to the guy doing the shooting. Had he have a gun, he could have drawn the gun, and kill the killer. But don´t you think that in the confussion, it is very likely that someone hears shoots, sees a guy with a weapon drawn and confuse the guy saving the day with the initial shooter and kills him? What about if there is shootings and everybody gets their gun out and start shooting whoever also has a gun drawn? How many innocent people could die in that situation?
Sorry, no links, but you will agree with me that it is a very real posibility...
What you are missing is that your opinion in this subject is as biased as mine, just in the other direction. You look at the best scenario and i look at the worst. To me common sense is avoiding the worst, not hoping for the best.

[Botellines 0]

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PS: And, Torero, next time do not fail to proof it with a link, OK?

I tried to find a link that proves that when i am mighty drunk i tell the same story 20 times, but couldn´t find any...
I knew my friends were exagerating

Happy Chistmas, I hope Santa brings you and your family everything you asked for.

Somehow i doubt it as i fear he is going to get shot down from the sky as it travels around the U.S. by a drunk CCW.

[christelsabine 1]

Santa must be a clever guy, he surely knows the hidden and safe ways since centuries

Perhaps he will bring along some peace, too? We never know...
Best wishes for X-Mas and New Year for you, too and to everybody at this site.

BTW:
Remind your friends to take some little pics or a nice video next time, you start telling same story the 21st time

Hola and cheers to Spain

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[PhillyKev 0]

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Sorry, no links, but you will agree with me that it is a very real posibility...

Maybe in a Quentin Tarantino movie.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

It was announced on the news here this morning that Gale tried to get on stage during another DamagePlan concert earlier this year. Once again, it was right at the start of the show but security was able to keep him off the stage.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Paige 0]

Damn, I'll talk to my friend to see if I can get any more info on this. He was working in the back at the time of the shootings. I know he also worked at the Newport and was friends with Dimebag since he has done many shows for him. I'll be sure to post an update from first hand sources and accounts (from employees of the AlRosa).

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Damn, I'll talk to my friend to see if I can get any more info on this. He was working in the back at the time of the shootings. I know he also worked at the Newport and was friends with Dimebag since he has done many shows for him. I'll be sure to post an update from first hand sources and accounts (from employees of the AlRosa).

It was on the local rock radio station here - I was trying to access their "rock report" on the website but it isn't there as they claimed. The reporter is called "Freak" and has a decent amount of connections in the industry since he was a roadie among other roles.

Here is something odd - Dimebag's murder was the same day as Lenon's.

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_RelishArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779680590&path=!entertainment!music&s=1037645508978

And Gale was an ex-Marine that was discharged after two years:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/6660359/pantera?pageid=rs.NewsArchive&pageregion=mainRegion

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Shotgun 1]

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Maybe in a Quentin Tarantino movie.

Well since the actual story already sounds like a scene out of a Tarantino movie, pretty much any _hypothetical_ alternative outcome you want to come up with would fit right in.

I just can't understand why you guys are trying to use THIS particular incident to promote pro-gun views (and no I am not an anti-gun person). You can sit around making up stories all day about what might have happened, but what DID happen is that a psycho with a gun killed five people (including himself) and a cop with a gun saved other people from getting killed. Anything else that might have happened is nothing more than hypothetical BS and therefore proves absolutely nothing.

[markd_nscr986 0]

***I just can't understand why you guys are trying to use THIS particular incident to promote pro-gun views (and no I am not an anti-gun person). You can sit around making up stories all day about what might have happened, but what DID happen is that a psycho with a gun killed five people (including himself) and a cop with a gun saved other people from getting killed. Anything else that might have happened is nothing more than hypothetical BS and therefore proves absolutely nothing.



Because (more hypothetical BS)one armed trained citizen could've taken the bad guy down and saved some lives,hypothetically speaking of course

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[Shotgun 1]

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Because (more hypothetical BS)one armed trained citizen could've taken the bad guy down and saved some lives

Yes, that has been stated over and over in this thread - as well as the alternative which is that an armed citizen in the audience could have made the situation worse. (both hypothetical and pretty useless for trying to prove anything)

So that is the last time I'll say that since this thread has become redundant.

[PhillyKev 0]

And I can't understand why you guys are using hypotheticals in order to promote restricting people from legally carrying their legal firearms.

I guess the difference is that you guys want to restrict people based on hypotheticals, I prefer not to.

[Shotgun 1]

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And I can't understand why you guys are using hypotheticals in order to promote restricting people from legally carrying their legal firearms.

I'm not trying to restrict anyone from doing anything. Another thing I've said over and over in this thread (so this is the last time I'll say this one too): I think it should be up to the owner of the bar if they want to allow people in with guns. Just because someone has the right to carry their gun around doesn't mean that a private business owner should be forced to allow armed citizens on their property if they don't want them there.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Just because someone has the right to carry their gun around doesn't mean that a private business owner should be forced to allow armed citizens on their property if they don't want them there.

And they aren't. Any private property owner can prohibit it all they want. The point of this thread was to demonstrate why it shouldn't be a legislated issue. That's all I or anyone else on my side has been saying, yet you keep arguing. So I have to assume you either disagree, or want to argue

[Shotgun 1]

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The point of this thread was to demonstrate why it shouldn't be a legislated issue.

And my point is that THIS incident does NOT demonstrate why it shouldn't be a legislated issue. I'm sure there are other incidents you could use to try and demonstrate that, but this one doesn't work (and I'm not going to repeat WHY it doesn't work because I've already said it too many times and it really should be common sense anyway).

And no, I don't want to argue, so I think I'll leave this thread alone now.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Because (more hypothetical BS)one armed trained citizen could've taken the bad guy down and saved some lives,hypothetically speaking of course

The shooter was a trained Marine. There is a chance that a civilian with little or no training could have caused more damage. I'm a good shot (and better than some CCWs I know), but I doubt I would be good enough to open fire and only hit the perp in a crowded, panic filled environment.

Personally speaking - I feel safer knowing that some wannabe with a CCW can't bring his gun into a place with booze. Most people I have met that say out loud "I wish I had my gun" tend to have some serious issues and I wouldn't want them going into "hero" mode while I am around or my loved ones are around.

Now, I have no problem with an off duty cop with a gun. They have been trained and tend not to go into "hero" mode. Quite a few friends of mine are cops, sheriffs or state troopers and they almost always have a gun on them. Before their training I would never have wanted them out with their gun - I knew how they acted with them. But once they came back from training they acted more mature and responsible with the weapon. If a CCW had to go thru similar training I wouldn't care as much.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....