ChasingBlueSky 0 #151 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports - you can't carry your gun there with your CCW either. Why isn't everyone protesting about that? After all, terrorists may be there and you could be there with your loved ones and would have to protect them!!! I agree. Ok, so start protesting to the FAA to allow you to carry in an airport and on commercial airlines._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #152 December 21, 2004 QuoteI had someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun. Let me ellaborate for you. The box cutter was in the hand he was punching me with, with the blade extended, resulting in my shirt drenched in blood and a trip in an ambulance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #153 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteI had someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun. Let me ellaborate for you. The box cutter was in the hand he was punching me with, with the blade extended, resulting in my shirt drenched in blood and a trip in an ambulance. Murphy is a friend of yours, huh?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #154 December 21, 2004 QuoteOk, so start protesting to the FAA to allow you to carry in an airport and on commercial airlines. I would if it would do any good, but it won't because CCW laws are on a state by state basis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #155 December 21, 2004 *** had someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun. But then you werent the one being sliced and diced a la "OJ"Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #156 December 21, 2004 Quote Murphy is a friend of yours, huh? Let's just say I have an inordinate amount of luck...both good AND bad. Nothing is ever what I expect, it's usually a whole let better or a whole lot worse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #157 December 21, 2004 QuoteOnce someone has done something wrong (committing libel or slander) they should be punished. Do you support banning typewriters in newspaper buildings to prevent libel from happening? That would equate to baning guns in bars to prevent deaths. Yes or no. edits to original question in bold What do you think now? Quote What I am saying is that we need laws that provide protection. Not allowing a CCW into a bar is one of those provisions. Using your lideas, a person could make the argument that "we need laws that provide protection. Not allowing a CCW outside a house is one of those provisions." Do you concur? If not, why not? I'm curious to know where you draw the line, and why.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #158 December 21, 2004 QuoteDo you support banning typewriters in newspaper buildings to prevent libel from happening? That would equate to baning guns in bars to prevent deaths. Yes or no. Quote That just seems like a stretch. QuoteDo you concur? If not, why not? I'm curious to know where you draw the line, and why. The slippery slope. I have no idea where the line is, thats why I don't think any changes need to be made. The system works as it is._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #159 December 21, 2004 Quotehad someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun. But then you werent the one being sliced and diced a la "OJ" As a kid (6th grade) I had to spend a week at Michael Reese hospital due to a bad case of pneumonia. After four days of bed rest, I needed to take a walk. Apparently there was a wrong side of the nursing station as a gang member pulled a knife on me and made a few choice threats. Even back then I was able to handle the situation and walk away without a cut on my body. If someone has a muderous rage you probably will never see it coming._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #160 December 21, 2004 QuoteLet's just say I have an inordinate amount of luck...both good AND bad. Nothing is ever what I expect, it's usually a whole let better or a whole lot worse Sounds like your buddy Murphy has manic depression.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #161 December 21, 2004 Someday I'd like to meet Mr. Murphy and shake his hand... and then hang him from the rafters by his own inards. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #162 December 22, 2004 QuoteThere are volumes of legal books when it comes to your opinion on something? No, I try to base my opinion on the law. Unlike most it seems. But with all the legal books on it, I am not an expert and if someone brings proof....Something which most don't seem to do, my opinion could changed (something most will not do) based on law."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #163 December 22, 2004 QuoteI think that when one of those assholes has had so much to drink that common sense has totally abondoned him, it would be dangerous if he has a gun. And nothing is preventing bubba in carying a gun now in a bar. The law is only stopping me or another CCW holder from being allowed. You see Gale killed 4 people and wounded many more. He did not have a CCW permit. But he still walked into a bar with a gun and killed people. The people who would have liked to legally carry could not do to the law. You see unless you can prevent the criminals frm carrying a weapon where the good legal guys are not you are endagering the legal guys. You are doing nothing to prevent the criminals from doing it. QuoteIf anyone can think of any way to prevent people from drinking and carrying guns Agin you are not allowed to carry unless you have a CCW. Part of the training needed to get a CCW is knowing you are not allowed to drink while under arms. However the people without a CCW can do it since it is illegal anyway for them to carry, so it does not matter to them. You are only stopping the guys that follow the law with these laws. The bad guys (Suh as Gale) are gonna break them anyway. We already have laws that should prevent folks like gale from carrying a weapon into a bar, and shooting it in a city, and killing 4 people, and shooting people. But the bad guys are gonna do it anyway. QuoteWould you be okay if the bar made all the CCW holders identify at the door and wear a visible sticker so the waiter would not serve them any alcohol? That would be the dumbest thing. Picture this...Some redneck gets pissed and sees you have a CCW sticker. Now he knows where to get a gun. Bad idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #164 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo it won't. In the melee and confusion the follows any incident involving large numbers of people and those who are intoxicated, it is highly unlikely that any meaningful intervention would be able to be accomplished by a bystander, armed or otherwise. Did you read this case? They guy who was there said he could have done something. You were not there, but are saying he could not. QuoteNot at all. I don't necessarily have a problem with CCW, but a bar or event with alcohol is not a place where a reasonable person would conclude that CCW's are safe. I have been in public safety for 23 years and have seen first hand how quickly things get out of control when drinking gets involved. I have seen things as benign as a bonfire become a death trap when even mild amount of beer and skydivers mix. And this was an event where there was no hostility going on. The speed at which things get out of control is truly amazing. Sorry, booze and guns, of any type, don't mix in public (or in private for that matter). Thats why there are already laws against drinking while under arms. And I am not going to arugue that a drunk with a gun is bad. But a sober guy with a gun in a bar is NOT the same thing as a drunk with a gun. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #165 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. I bet very few crazed gunmen have opened fire inside an airport terminal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #166 December 22, 2004 QuoteThe system works as it is. No it does not. Right now the only people who are carrying a gun where there is alcohol are the ones that don't follow the law. Some of them, like Cole, kill people. It clearly is not working. We already have laws that it is illegal to carry while drinking...And I agree with those laws. But just because you are in a bar does not mean you have to drink, and a CCW should be allowed to carry if he has not been drinking."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #167 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo, I try to base my opinion on the law. Unlike most it seems. I am certainly in the other category.....I think there are many laws that are not right and my opinion differs from them. The question was what your opinion is, how you felt about something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #168 December 22, 2004 QuoteYou see Gale killed 4 people and wounded many more. He did not have a CCW permit. But he still walked into a bar with a gun and killed people. He didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. (Maybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures.) This is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. Perhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Any conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #169 December 22, 2004 QuoteHe didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. He still got in with a gun. Having a gun ina bar is illegal, and that did not stop him. So the law only prevents a guy from protecting himself legally, while it does not stop a criminal from doing crimes. QuoteMaybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures. Why according to your words they turned him away and he climbed a fence to get in. Do you expect them to have roving patrols with dogs? Again, it just goes to show how a criminal will comit crimes and that this law only prevents law abiding citizens from protecting themselves. QuoteThis is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. sue it is a guy with a CCW taht was close enough to do something was not allowed to carry due to a current law. It shows one of the problems quite clearly. QuotePerhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Happens all the time, just not in bars since it is illegal to have a gun in a bar. QuoteAny conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Sure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... 4 people are dead and several more wounded. The gunman had time to reload before a cop (Who luckily was right there) could stop him. You also have still not shown one case of a CCW pulling a gun while drunk and using it....You have shown an accident, but that is not the same. Maybe you should prove why a right should be taken away insted of demanding I prove why a right in the US Constitution should be restricted."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #170 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. Have you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? Or the guy at Ohare that ran right past security into the terminal and then no one could find him? Then there was the time when a friend of mine forgot to take his six inch knife out of his back pack and it still got past security (this was back in April). Seems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #171 December 22, 2004 QuoteSure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... Doubtful to you. To me, it is doubtful that he could have helped the situation. And if it was legal to have a gun in there then it's likely that several other CCW holders might have been armed and it could have turned into a nice little shootout with a bunch of over-zealous vigilantes (and created a much more difficult situation for the police when they arrived). Again, just speculation, but it can go either way and it will still be nothing but speculation. QuoteMaybe you should prove why a right should be taken away I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #172 December 22, 2004 QuoteHave you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? You seem to forget where I work, and what part of my job duties are. I know TONS about airport security. Being that right now I am in my office looking out a window onto Tampa International Airport, and I have unescorted access to the flight line (The only access I don't have is an active runway or taxiway). QuoteSeems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days. Agreed, I would love to be able to carry on flights. But for the most part the new security procedures are better than we have ever had before. And your run of the mill nightclub bar could not afford the level of security even my building has. We pay around 50,000 a mth paying security guards, have one machine worth around 35,000, another machine that "smells" for explosives that I have no idea how much it is, and two full time Security Officers that are licensed law enforcement officers, plus part of my salary. I just spent 2 grand on a upgrade to one of our security systems, we added 5 new cameras...And a whole bunch of things I can't talk about. AND all of our employees go through and have to pass a 10 year background check before they can work in this building. I doubt ANY night club or bar has all that....And this is nothing compared to the main terminal at TIA. So while I can (And have as part of my job) snuck things past our guards...It is rare."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #173 December 22, 2004 QuoteI'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. They already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #174 December 22, 2004 QuoteThey already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Then if they own any of those certain types of businesses, they don't already have that right. I was saying that I think bar owners should have that right too... Then we can all choose which bars we want to go to based on their policies. Not perfect, but it seems like the most fair solution. I personally don't want to go to bars where they allow people in with guns, but it would be easy enough to just not go in one if I knew they allowed them. (Just as it would be easy enough for someone who felt the need to carry a gun to not go into a bar that did not allow them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #175 December 22, 2004 Finally, I wondered how long it would take to get to this point. (the real common sense position). Let the businesses choose their policies and then they can live with the impact to their bottom line (if any). And let the customers choose which businesses they patronize. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 7 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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ChasingBlueSky 0 #159 December 21, 2004 Quotehad someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun. But then you werent the one being sliced and diced a la "OJ" As a kid (6th grade) I had to spend a week at Michael Reese hospital due to a bad case of pneumonia. After four days of bed rest, I needed to take a walk. Apparently there was a wrong side of the nursing station as a gang member pulled a knife on me and made a few choice threats. Even back then I was able to handle the situation and walk away without a cut on my body. If someone has a muderous rage you probably will never see it coming._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #160 December 21, 2004 QuoteLet's just say I have an inordinate amount of luck...both good AND bad. Nothing is ever what I expect, it's usually a whole let better or a whole lot worse Sounds like your buddy Murphy has manic depression.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #161 December 21, 2004 Someday I'd like to meet Mr. Murphy and shake his hand... and then hang him from the rafters by his own inards. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #162 December 22, 2004 QuoteThere are volumes of legal books when it comes to your opinion on something? No, I try to base my opinion on the law. Unlike most it seems. But with all the legal books on it, I am not an expert and if someone brings proof....Something which most don't seem to do, my opinion could changed (something most will not do) based on law."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #163 December 22, 2004 QuoteI think that when one of those assholes has had so much to drink that common sense has totally abondoned him, it would be dangerous if he has a gun. And nothing is preventing bubba in carying a gun now in a bar. The law is only stopping me or another CCW holder from being allowed. You see Gale killed 4 people and wounded many more. He did not have a CCW permit. But he still walked into a bar with a gun and killed people. The people who would have liked to legally carry could not do to the law. You see unless you can prevent the criminals frm carrying a weapon where the good legal guys are not you are endagering the legal guys. You are doing nothing to prevent the criminals from doing it. QuoteIf anyone can think of any way to prevent people from drinking and carrying guns Agin you are not allowed to carry unless you have a CCW. Part of the training needed to get a CCW is knowing you are not allowed to drink while under arms. However the people without a CCW can do it since it is illegal anyway for them to carry, so it does not matter to them. You are only stopping the guys that follow the law with these laws. The bad guys (Suh as Gale) are gonna break them anyway. We already have laws that should prevent folks like gale from carrying a weapon into a bar, and shooting it in a city, and killing 4 people, and shooting people. But the bad guys are gonna do it anyway. QuoteWould you be okay if the bar made all the CCW holders identify at the door and wear a visible sticker so the waiter would not serve them any alcohol? That would be the dumbest thing. Picture this...Some redneck gets pissed and sees you have a CCW sticker. Now he knows where to get a gun. Bad idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #164 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo it won't. In the melee and confusion the follows any incident involving large numbers of people and those who are intoxicated, it is highly unlikely that any meaningful intervention would be able to be accomplished by a bystander, armed or otherwise. Did you read this case? They guy who was there said he could have done something. You were not there, but are saying he could not. QuoteNot at all. I don't necessarily have a problem with CCW, but a bar or event with alcohol is not a place where a reasonable person would conclude that CCW's are safe. I have been in public safety for 23 years and have seen first hand how quickly things get out of control when drinking gets involved. I have seen things as benign as a bonfire become a death trap when even mild amount of beer and skydivers mix. And this was an event where there was no hostility going on. The speed at which things get out of control is truly amazing. Sorry, booze and guns, of any type, don't mix in public (or in private for that matter). Thats why there are already laws against drinking while under arms. And I am not going to arugue that a drunk with a gun is bad. But a sober guy with a gun in a bar is NOT the same thing as a drunk with a gun. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #165 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. I bet very few crazed gunmen have opened fire inside an airport terminal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #166 December 22, 2004 QuoteThe system works as it is. No it does not. Right now the only people who are carrying a gun where there is alcohol are the ones that don't follow the law. Some of them, like Cole, kill people. It clearly is not working. We already have laws that it is illegal to carry while drinking...And I agree with those laws. But just because you are in a bar does not mean you have to drink, and a CCW should be allowed to carry if he has not been drinking."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #167 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo, I try to base my opinion on the law. Unlike most it seems. I am certainly in the other category.....I think there are many laws that are not right and my opinion differs from them. The question was what your opinion is, how you felt about something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #168 December 22, 2004 QuoteYou see Gale killed 4 people and wounded many more. He did not have a CCW permit. But he still walked into a bar with a gun and killed people. He didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. (Maybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures.) This is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. Perhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Any conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #169 December 22, 2004 QuoteHe didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. He still got in with a gun. Having a gun ina bar is illegal, and that did not stop him. So the law only prevents a guy from protecting himself legally, while it does not stop a criminal from doing crimes. QuoteMaybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures. Why according to your words they turned him away and he climbed a fence to get in. Do you expect them to have roving patrols with dogs? Again, it just goes to show how a criminal will comit crimes and that this law only prevents law abiding citizens from protecting themselves. QuoteThis is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. sue it is a guy with a CCW taht was close enough to do something was not allowed to carry due to a current law. It shows one of the problems quite clearly. QuotePerhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Happens all the time, just not in bars since it is illegal to have a gun in a bar. QuoteAny conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Sure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... 4 people are dead and several more wounded. The gunman had time to reload before a cop (Who luckily was right there) could stop him. You also have still not shown one case of a CCW pulling a gun while drunk and using it....You have shown an accident, but that is not the same. Maybe you should prove why a right should be taken away insted of demanding I prove why a right in the US Constitution should be restricted."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #170 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. Have you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? Or the guy at Ohare that ran right past security into the terminal and then no one could find him? Then there was the time when a friend of mine forgot to take his six inch knife out of his back pack and it still got past security (this was back in April). Seems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #171 December 22, 2004 QuoteSure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... Doubtful to you. To me, it is doubtful that he could have helped the situation. And if it was legal to have a gun in there then it's likely that several other CCW holders might have been armed and it could have turned into a nice little shootout with a bunch of over-zealous vigilantes (and created a much more difficult situation for the police when they arrived). Again, just speculation, but it can go either way and it will still be nothing but speculation. QuoteMaybe you should prove why a right should be taken away I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #172 December 22, 2004 QuoteHave you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? You seem to forget where I work, and what part of my job duties are. I know TONS about airport security. Being that right now I am in my office looking out a window onto Tampa International Airport, and I have unescorted access to the flight line (The only access I don't have is an active runway or taxiway). QuoteSeems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days. Agreed, I would love to be able to carry on flights. But for the most part the new security procedures are better than we have ever had before. And your run of the mill nightclub bar could not afford the level of security even my building has. We pay around 50,000 a mth paying security guards, have one machine worth around 35,000, another machine that "smells" for explosives that I have no idea how much it is, and two full time Security Officers that are licensed law enforcement officers, plus part of my salary. I just spent 2 grand on a upgrade to one of our security systems, we added 5 new cameras...And a whole bunch of things I can't talk about. AND all of our employees go through and have to pass a 10 year background check before they can work in this building. I doubt ANY night club or bar has all that....And this is nothing compared to the main terminal at TIA. So while I can (And have as part of my job) snuck things past our guards...It is rare."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #173 December 22, 2004 QuoteI'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. They already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #174 December 22, 2004 QuoteThey already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Then if they own any of those certain types of businesses, they don't already have that right. I was saying that I think bar owners should have that right too... Then we can all choose which bars we want to go to based on their policies. Not perfect, but it seems like the most fair solution. I personally don't want to go to bars where they allow people in with guns, but it would be easy enough to just not go in one if I knew they allowed them. (Just as it would be easy enough for someone who felt the need to carry a gun to not go into a bar that did not allow them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #175 December 22, 2004 Finally, I wondered how long it would take to get to this point. (the real common sense position). Let the businesses choose their policies and then they can live with the impact to their bottom line (if any). And let the customers choose which businesses they patronize. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 7 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Ron 10 #165 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. I bet very few crazed gunmen have opened fire inside an airport terminal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #166 December 22, 2004 QuoteThe system works as it is. No it does not. Right now the only people who are carrying a gun where there is alcohol are the ones that don't follow the law. Some of them, like Cole, kill people. It clearly is not working. We already have laws that it is illegal to carry while drinking...And I agree with those laws. But just because you are in a bar does not mean you have to drink, and a CCW should be allowed to carry if he has not been drinking."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #167 December 22, 2004 QuoteNo, I try to base my opinion on the law. Unlike most it seems. I am certainly in the other category.....I think there are many laws that are not right and my opinion differs from them. The question was what your opinion is, how you felt about something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #168 December 22, 2004 QuoteYou see Gale killed 4 people and wounded many more. He did not have a CCW permit. But he still walked into a bar with a gun and killed people. He didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. (Maybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures.) This is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. Perhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Any conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #169 December 22, 2004 QuoteHe didn't walk into a bar with a gun. He hopped over an 8-foot fence to get into the bar after the people at the door had already told him to go away. He still got in with a gun. Having a gun ina bar is illegal, and that did not stop him. So the law only prevents a guy from protecting himself legally, while it does not stop a criminal from doing crimes. QuoteMaybe that bar needs to re-think their security measures. Why according to your words they turned him away and he climbed a fence to get in. Do you expect them to have roving patrols with dogs? Again, it just goes to show how a criminal will comit crimes and that this law only prevents law abiding citizens from protecting themselves. QuoteThis is really not the incident to be using to prove that it's a good idea to let CCW holders take their guns into bars. sue it is a guy with a CCW taht was close enough to do something was not allowed to carry due to a current law. It shows one of the problems quite clearly. QuotePerhaps you should find an incident where a CCW holder actually defended themselves or made a positive difference in the outcome of a bad situation. Happens all the time, just not in bars since it is illegal to have a gun in a bar. QuoteAny conclusions you come to regarding this incident are only speculation. Since he wasn't armed, we have no way of knowing whether he would have made the situation better or worse - so this incident does absolutely nothing to proove your point. Sure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... 4 people are dead and several more wounded. The gunman had time to reload before a cop (Who luckily was right there) could stop him. You also have still not shown one case of a CCW pulling a gun while drunk and using it....You have shown an accident, but that is not the same. Maybe you should prove why a right should be taken away insted of demanding I prove why a right in the US Constitution should be restricted."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #170 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports Uh, no airports have security that is armed, and these cool things called metal detectors. Have you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? Or the guy at Ohare that ran right past security into the terminal and then no one could find him? Then there was the time when a friend of mine forgot to take his six inch knife out of his back pack and it still got past security (this was back in April). Seems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #171 December 22, 2004 QuoteSure it does it is doubtful that it could have gone much worse... Doubtful to you. To me, it is doubtful that he could have helped the situation. And if it was legal to have a gun in there then it's likely that several other CCW holders might have been armed and it could have turned into a nice little shootout with a bunch of over-zealous vigilantes (and created a much more difficult situation for the police when they arrived). Again, just speculation, but it can go either way and it will still be nothing but speculation. QuoteMaybe you should prove why a right should be taken away I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #172 December 22, 2004 QuoteHave you seen the recent stories where the test weapons got thru security and then the lost them? You seem to forget where I work, and what part of my job duties are. I know TONS about airport security. Being that right now I am in my office looking out a window onto Tampa International Airport, and I have unescorted access to the flight line (The only access I don't have is an active runway or taxiway). QuoteSeems to me that there are major holes in airport security still. Seems to me with the state of the world that would be a more likely place where you would have to defend yourself these days. Agreed, I would love to be able to carry on flights. But for the most part the new security procedures are better than we have ever had before. And your run of the mill nightclub bar could not afford the level of security even my building has. We pay around 50,000 a mth paying security guards, have one machine worth around 35,000, another machine that "smells" for explosives that I have no idea how much it is, and two full time Security Officers that are licensed law enforcement officers, plus part of my salary. I just spent 2 grand on a upgrade to one of our security systems, we added 5 new cameras...And a whole bunch of things I can't talk about. AND all of our employees go through and have to pass a 10 year background check before they can work in this building. I doubt ANY night club or bar has all that....And this is nothing compared to the main terminal at TIA. So while I can (And have as part of my job) snuck things past our guards...It is rare."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #173 December 22, 2004 QuoteI'm not trying to take anyone's rights away. As I stated before, I think it should be the right of the individual private business owner to decide whether they want to allow concealed weapons into their establishment or not. They already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #174 December 22, 2004 QuoteThey already have that right. Continuing a legislative ban on certain types of businesses takes that choice away from proprietors and their patrons. Then if they own any of those certain types of businesses, they don't already have that right. I was saying that I think bar owners should have that right too... Then we can all choose which bars we want to go to based on their policies. Not perfect, but it seems like the most fair solution. I personally don't want to go to bars where they allow people in with guns, but it would be easy enough to just not go in one if I knew they allowed them. (Just as it would be easy enough for someone who felt the need to carry a gun to not go into a bar that did not allow them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #175 December 22, 2004 Finally, I wondered how long it would take to get to this point. (the real common sense position). Let the businesses choose their policies and then they can live with the impact to their bottom line (if any). And let the customers choose which businesses they patronize. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
