Ohio Incident

[christelsabine 1]

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This post is going to be dismissed right away as it doesnt contain any google-proof, just common sense.

When you get drunk, you do things that otherwise you wouldn´t do. I usually fall asleep or bore to death my friends by telling them the same story 20 times. Other people throw up, piss on themselves or will hit on anything that looks like a woman. And there is the ocasional guy who gets aggresive. Maybe it is a minority, maybe not, but they exist.
I think that when one of those assholes has had so much to drink that common sense has totally abondoned him, it would be dangerous if he has a gun. Remember that conflicts scalate and what could have been just a fist fight can turn in something much worse.

Now, i see the problem beetwen guns and alcohol, not beetwen bars and guns. The problem is that you can get alcohol in bars.
If anyone can think of any way to prevent people from drinking and carrying guns, i would say it is a good idea (I would ban guns altogether, but that is just my opinion from a country where guns are not that common). But I don´t see how you could do that withough vulnerating other basic rights.

Would you be okay if the bar made all the CCW holders identify at the door and wear a visible sticker so the waiter would not serve them any alcohol?

Would you be okay if you had to breathalise to prove that you have not been drinking before?

Torero,
you said something I really appreciate, something what is so rare on this site:

Common sense.

Nearly in every thread posters deal around with links, prooves, google searches etc. This shows me only one thing: A lack of knowledge, a lack of common sense.

OK, if it comes to a final hot discusssion: Why not. Post a link and it's OK.

But, in cases like present ones, you do not need a link. It is simply something everybody knows from own experience, reading, walking in the streets, even watching TV: simply living.

I appreciate your post. If it's a CCW holder or not: Every normal brain knows, that alcohol and guns, alcohol and cars ..........fill in whatever you like .... will not match. Period.

Nice to read a normal written post. Thx.

Christel

PS: And, Torero, next time do not fail to proof it with a link, OK?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[PhillyKev 0]

His post makes no sense. Please see my response.

If you're relying on people voluntarily obeying the law, then make illegal what you are trying to prevent. I.E. people drinking while carrying.

[markd_nscr986 0]

***Nearly in every thread posters deal around with links, prooves, google searches etc. This shows me only one thing: A lack of knowledge, a lack of common sense.


Yeah,right,you bet,whatever you say

Oh shit .......no link or proof for my post,that must mean I have common sense

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[christelsabine 1]

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His post makes no sense. Please see my response.

If you're relying on people voluntarily obeying the law, then make illegal what you are trying to prevent. I.E. people drinking while carrying.

PhillyKev,
I replied to B's last post which I appreciated and which was refreshing to read. Perhaps it was written too simple for you?
Sometimes, simple wordings explain more. His post makes sense to me.

I did read your response. And still reply the same, this time to you: We need more of common sense. On what do you rely when meeting someone at very first time? On google?

cya
Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[PhillyKev 0]

Your post makes no sense to me...I have no idea what you're talking about

[Kennedy 0]

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Two reasons. First, if I was a bar owner or bouncer, I wouldn't want guns in my bar. Try to tell a person (or 4 persons) with a gun to leave.

Private property owners have the right to prevent anyone they choose from entering. Posting "no guns" signs is allowed. If someone doesn't leave, call the cops. It's not that hard.

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I often see a scenario. People taking part of a scene that they didn't create. A drunk starts something with another drunk and 4 of their friends join in. What if one was sober, but armed?

If lethal force is justified in defending yourself or another, then it is justified whether the instigator is drunk or not. Being drunk doesn't excuse you from teh consequences of attacking someone. It is up to the cober CCW holder to decide whether or not a gun is needed, just like in any other setting.

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Someone is fighting with your friend, your friend is losing. You are sober, but armed. You would defend your friend, right?

Of course I would, that's part of being a friend. Doesn't mean I have to use a gun to do it. A gun is a last resort for me, just like it is for a cop. Having a gun does not immediately rule out other options.

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Less than two weeks ago, I went out Christmas shopping with a female friend. Afterwards, we went to Bennigans to eat (the outside cafe part).

Before we sat down, a drunk three tables over YELLS, "that chick could suck my c***". The drunk had 3 friends with him.

I walked over and told him to watch his mouth.
He told me to "go f*** myself". I told his friends that they should take care of the situation.

You don't think alerting the manager or leaving may have been more productive means of dealing with the asshat? You escalated the situation by confronting the drunk yourself.

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If things had progressed, I wouldn't have wanted one of his sober friends to have a gun.

You have such inherent distrust of people that I believe you wouldn't trust anyone other than yourself with a gun.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[christelsabine 1]

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***Nearly in every thread posters deal around with links, prooves, google searches etc. This shows me only one thing: A lack of knowledge, a lack of common sense.


Yeah,right,you bet,whatever you say

Oh shit .......no link or proof for my post,that must mean I have common sense

Oh Lord, I hit a hornet's nest? That was not my intention!

Clarify that with your own parents...

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[PhillyKev 0]

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You have such inherent distrust of people that I believe you wouldn't trust anyone other than yourself with a gun.

And furthermore, how do you know he or one of his friends DIDN'T have a gun?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You have such inherent distrust of people that I believe you wouldn't trust anyone other than yourself with a gun.

That's funny coming from a guy who distrusts his fellow american citizens so much that he has to be armed to defend himself against them at all times.

[PhillyKev 0]

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You have such inherent distrust of people that I believe you wouldn't trust anyone other than yourself with a gun.

That's funny coming from a guy who distrusts his fellow american citizens so much that he has to be armed to defend himself against them at all times.

The point your missing is that he was addressing that to someone who does own a gun.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The point your missing is that he was addressing that to someone who does own a gun.

Wasn't missing the point, just laughing at the pot, kettle and black thing.

[Kennedy 0]

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Hmm, you're right... Maybe guns should just be banned altogether since so many people are incapable of controlling their anger.

Right, let's punish everyone for the failure of the few.

While we're at it, let's just ban everything that anyone has ever used when they were angry. People have to be protected from themselves, afterall.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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Here is a long list of incidents involving CCW holders:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/...ncident&menu=gvr

That is impossible. Gun owners and especially those with a CCW are all law abiding citizens and never commit a crime. This is just one of those pinko liberal conspiracies.

Can you say "strawman?" I knew you could.

The fact is CCW holders are, as a group, much more law abiding than the population at large. Look at the number of people who commit crimes, and then look at the nubmer of CCW holders who commit crimes. The second number has universally been shown to be significantly smaller.

No one has claimed that all CCW holders are angels.


It should be noted that the vast majority of licenses that are revoked for reasons that have nothing to do with misuse of the gun, so that one thousand number quoted for Florida means nothing. Also, that one thousand is out of how many again? Yeah, that's what I htought.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I am sorry you missed it kennedy.

[Kennedy 0]

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I'm for freedom of speech in all forms, but responsibility is needed with that freedom as well. You know the typical example of calling out 'fire' in a crowded room. Should there be a law against the word 'fire?' Of course not - but there are laws against being irresonsible with your words (ie libel)

You refute your own case in this post. The word fire is not illegal. People are not gagged when they go into a theater to prevent them from yelling fire.

It's called prior restraint, and it's a bad thing.

There are already laws against being irresponsible with your firearm. That's why the guys in her examples were arrested (and lost their license). Why punish all responsible people for the irresponsibility of a few?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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Do you feel that the laws about libel and slander trash your 1st Amendment rights? Yes or No.

No. Once someone has done something wrong (committing libel or slander) they should be punished.

Do you support banning newspapers to prevent libel from happening? That would equate to baning guns to prevent deaths. Yes or no.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

And what exactly are you claiming I missed?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Do you feel that the laws about libel and slander trash your 1st Amendment rights? Yes or No.

No. Once someone has done something wrong (committing libel or slander) they should be punished.

Do you support banning newspapers to prevent libel from happening? That would equate to baning guns to prevent deaths. Yes or no.

Yes it would - if I was talking about banning guns, which I wasn't. Stop being so damn trigger happy(pun) on the banning guns part - I'm not talking or even hinting about that!!

What I am saying is that we need laws that provide protection. Not allowing a CCW into a bar is one of those provisions.

Never once in my years of bar/club hoping did I ever say "damn, I really need a gun right now." Maybe I just go to better bars Then again, I've never had to think that line.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Shotgun 1]

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Right, let's punish everyone for the failure of the few.

Once again, I was being sarcastic.

Personally, I think it should be left up to individual business owners whether they want to allow weapons into their establishment or not (for the most part). And I would guess that most bar owners would choose not to allow weapons because of the obvious danger... but at least that way people who felt the need to carry a gun into bars could choose a bar that allowed it (and vice versa).

I have mixed feelings about gun laws - it's definitely not a black and white issue.

[PhillyKev 0]

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What I am saying is that we need laws that provide protection. Not allowing a CCW into a bar is one of those provisions.

Pssst...that's called banning them.

[Tink1717 2]

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Making it legal for CCW folks will not increase the risk. But it might stop som Jackass from killing folks.

No it won't. In the melee and confusion the follows any incident involving large numbers of people and those who are intoxicated, it is highly unlikely that any meaningful intervention would be able to be accomplished by a bystander, armed or otherwise.

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See the problem is I bet you are not for CCW anywhere. And the bar is just another place you don't want them.

Not at all. I don't necessarily have a problem with CCW, but a bar or event with alcohol is not a place where a reasonable person would conclude that CCW's are safe. I have been in public safety for 23 years and have seen first hand how quickly things get out of control when drinking gets involved. I have seen things as benign as a bonfire become a death trap when even mild amount of beer and skydivers mix. And this was an event where there was no hostility going on. The speed at which things get out of control is truly amazing. Sorry, booze and guns, of any type, don't mix in public (or in private for that matter).

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[PhillyKev 0]

***Never once in my years of bar/club hoping did I ever say "damn, I really need a gun right now."

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I did...when I got stabbed at a Beastie Boys concert after I accidentally bumped into someone and they jumped on me and started punching me in the chest with a box cutter in their hand.

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[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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What I am saying is that we need laws that provide protection. Not allowing a CCW into a bar is one of those provisions.

Pssst...that's called banning them.

No,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports - you can't carry your gun there with your CCW either. Why isn't everyone protesting about that? After all, terrorists may be there and you could be there with your loved ones and would have to protect them!!!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[PhillyKev 0]

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No,you still have your CCW and you can use it elsewhere. Just like airports - you can't carry your gun there with your CCW either. Why isn't everyone protesting about that? After all, terrorists may be there and you could be there with your loved ones and would have to protect them!!!

I agree.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Never once in my years of bar/club hoping did I ever say "damn, I really need a gun right now."

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I did...when I got stabbed at a Beastie Boys concert after I accidentally bumped into someone and they jumped on me and started punching me in the chest with a box cutter in their hand.

I had someone take a few swings at me at an Aerosmith concert as well - still didn't think I needed a gun.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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