Casurf1978 0 #76 December 21, 2004 Quote"In December 1997, concealed-weapons licensee John L. Paasch was arrested and charged with reckless endangerment, second-degree criminal mischief and disorderly conduct after shooting his gun off in a Tygart, OR, bar. According to the police report, Paasch was "goofing off" and pretending to shoot his gun. As he was putting it back into its holster, the gun went off and hit the bar, causing about $350 worth of damage. Luckily, no one was injured." "Also in September 1997, five men got into an argument outside of Big Willy's Saloon in Baldwin, PA. According to reports, words were exchanged, and guns were pulled. All five individuals had valid Pennsylvania concealed-weapons permits. Shots were fired, and five people were injured, two critically. Five weapons were recovered. Although only five bullets had been fired from three of the guns, each shot managed to injure someone. Baldwin Chief of Police, Christopher Kelly commented on how easy it was to obtain a concealed weapons permit. Previous laws had required a letter of reference from a local police chief. Chief Kelly used the rule to encourage applicants to obtain safety training. Changes in state law forced Chief Kelly to stop requiring safety training. "Anytime someone pulls a gun out because someone stared at them, it is a training issue," the Chief is quoted as saying. "A gun is not a fashion statement, and people need to be taught that guns are dangerous. Training has to be an issue." I dont have issues with people having CCW if they need to carry one. Perfect example would be diamond dealers in NYC. Walking around with a few hundred thousand or millions in your briefcase or pockets is a pretty damn good excuse to have a CCW. Alteractions at bars are common, last thing that needs to be added to that mixture is a gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #77 December 21, 2004 Ok, so we have 3 incidents over a period of 8 years. One an accident. One no one got hurt. And in the last, they weren't in the bar, so a ban wouldn't have made a difference. I don't think it's very convincing reason for a ban given two isolated and rare occurences. I'm sure I could find many many more examples of people getting hit with pool cues or bottles in bars. Hell, I've personally witnessed that myself a couple times. Should we ban pool and bottles from bars? If not, why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #78 December 21, 2004 QuoteI don't think it's very convincing reason for a ban given two isolated and rare occurences. I'm sure I could find many many more examples of people getting hit with pool cues or bottles in bars. Hell, I've personally witnessed that myself a couple times. Should we ban pool and bottles from bars? Comparing pool balls to guns, I dont see the connection. In the past 8 years how many crazy gun weilding psychos have walked on stage, shot the band then turned the gun on the crowd. This is one isolated and horrific incident, so just because this happened we should allow all bars, concerts halls, stadiums and clubs to permit CCW to enter with their weapon. Like I said I dont have problem with law abiding citizens having a CCW, but not in a bar, club, concert or stadium. Also out of curiosity why would you take a gun to a club, bar or concert. Do you fear for your safety that much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #79 December 21, 2004 ***Here is a long list of incidents involving CCW holders: http://www.bradycampaign.org/...ncident&menu=gvr Oh and from such a forthright and objective source tooThey have "conveniently"omitted some stats and facts.Perhaps to be fair and to hear the other side http://www.packing.orgMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #80 December 21, 2004 QuoteWell, that's not the question I was replying to, but: Well your accidents don't count then either. Since the question was: QuoteShow me cases of a CCW shooting someone without provication and we can talk. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #81 December 21, 2004 QuoteJust kidding, but OTOH, I wouldn't feel safe knowing the intoxicated can have access to firearms. I mean they do enough damage with non arms ( chairs, stools, cues, etc...) already. Adding firearms to the mix just seems like fighting a fire with a gasoline hose. The people I worry about having a gun...Are carrying now in bars anyway. Making it legal for CCW folks will not increase the risk. But it might stop som Jackass from killing folks. See the problem is I bet you are not for CCW anywhere. And the bar is just another place you don't want them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #82 December 21, 2004 Quote***However, in general, allowing firearms into bars, taverns, and similar venues would result in far more carnage than it would prevent. It's just about the worst idea I've heard proposed in this forum, and that's saying something. Where an idea is already a reality CCW law in Colo. does not prohibit conceal carry in bars, liquor stores,adult entertainment venues or any other place where alcohol is served.Exceptions are schools or school property K-12 and public buildings where metal detectors are in place ie government buildings airports courthouses etc. The "carnage" has yet to materialise Have a link for that? There was a bar shut down in Aurora recently for two shootings - in the parking lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #83 December 21, 2004 QuoteOh and from such a forthright and objective source too. I would not consider 49 different mainstream newspaper article non-objective. There was a challenge posed to come up with a single incident involving a ccw holder. Shotgun gave you 49 of them. Nor would I consider an oviously pro carry biased site objective. Do you really think they are going to highlight the weaknesses of their own argument?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #84 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteWell, that's not the question I was replying to, but: Well your accidents don't count then either. Since the question was: QuoteShow me cases of a CCW shooting someone without provication and we can talk. ? Umm, quite a few of the incidents listed on that page involved CCW holders shooting people without being provoked (a lot of them were accidental shootings)... Well, some of them were provoked - such as being fired from their job, having their neighbor shovel snow onto their property, or not liking the way someone else was driving... But, by provocation, I thought you meant actually having their life threatened and shooting someone in self defense. QuoteOn January 27, 2000, Louis Mockewich, 34, of Philadelphia, PA, shot and killed a neighbor who was shoveling snow behind his rowhouse. The two neighbors had been arguing over where the victim was placing the snow, and Mockewich's solution was to pull out his gun, for which he had a CCW permit, and kill the 31-year-old man. The victim, too had a CCW permit. On July 6, 2001, an unnamed man fatally shot 17-year-old Jacob W. Walton during a road rage altercation in Spokane, WA. Walton was a passenger in a car that got into an altercation with the shooter. According to police, the shooter had a concealed-weapons permit. In early December of 1999, William Manies, 52, of Fountain City, TN, returned to his former office to avenge the 45-year-old woman who fired him a month before. Manies, a CCW permit holder, walked into the office and pointed a .38-caliber pistol at the victim and executed her while she sat in her chair, talking on the telephone. Manies's wife, who also worked for the firm was present when her husband killed the co-worker. In Indianapolis, two women enjoying a meal were accidentally shot when a CCW licensee's gun fell out of his pocket. The November 11, 1997 incident occurred when Thomas Neuman, a concealed-weapons permit holder, bent over to help retrieve a broken necklace. His .32 caliber Derringer pistol, which he kept in his shirt pocket, fell to the floor, discharging one bullet that struck both women. According to police, the permit holder should have secured his gun in a holster. And that's just a few... Of course, I still don't think that guns should be completely banned; I just think there are certain places they don't belong, and a bar is one of those places. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #85 December 21, 2004 Quote? Umm, quite a few of the incidents listed on that page involved CCW holders shooting people without being provoked (a lot of them were accidental shootings)... Well, some of them were provoked - such as being fired from their job, having their neighbor shovel snow onto their property, or not liking the way someone else was driving... But, by provocation, I thought you meant actually having their life threatened and shooting someone in self defense. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On January 27, 2000, Louis Mockewich, 34, of Philadelphia, PA, shot and killed a neighbor who was shoveling snow behind his rowhouse. The two neighbors had been arguing over where the victim was placing the snow, and Mockewich's solution was to pull out his gun, for which he had a CCW permit, and kill the 31-year-old man. The victim, too had a CCW permit. On July 6, 2001, an unnamed man fatally shot 17-year-old Jacob W. Walton during a road rage altercation in Spokane, WA. Walton was a passenger in a car that got into an altercation with the shooter. According to police, the shooter had a concealed-weapons permit. In early December of 1999, William Manies, 52, of Fountain City, TN, returned to his former office to avenge the 45-year-old woman who fired him a month before. Manies, a CCW permit holder, walked into the office and pointed a .38-caliber pistol at the victim and executed her while she sat in her chair, talking on the telephone. Manies's wife, who also worked for the firm was present when her husband killed the co-worker. In Indianapolis, two women enjoying a meal were accidentally shot when a CCW licensee's gun fell out of his pocket. The November 11, 1997 incident occurred when Thomas Neuman, a concealed-weapons permit holder, bent over to help retrieve a broken necklace. His .32 caliber Derringer pistol, which he kept in his shirt pocket, fell to the floor, discharging one bullet that struck both women. According to police, the permit holder should have secured his gun in a holster. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And that's just a few... Of course, I still don't think that guns should be completely banned; I just think there are certain places they don't belong, and a bar is one of those places. None of those were bars...So where do you get your logic that bars are more dangerous than anywhere else?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #86 December 21, 2004 Sure http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-214.aspMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #87 December 21, 2004 QuoteNone of those were bars...So where do you get your logic that bars are more dangerous than anywhere else? Sorry, I did not realize that your original question was specific to bars, but in that case the very first incident I posted should work for you: QuoteOn November 14, 2001, a gun carried by 32-year-old Cesar Solis accidentally went off in a Chester County, PA, tavern, injuring three people including himself – one seriously. Solis was charged with two counts of aggravated assault, two counts of recklessly endangering another person, and one count of discharging a weapon in a building. Police said Solis, who had a permit to carry the gun, was at the Birch Inn late Sunday night with his brother when Cesar Solis pulled the gun from his waistband. The gun discharged and hit his brother and Sandra Pierson, who was seated at a nearby table. And I can apply my general knowledge that alcohol tends to make people more dangerous (I hear of far more bar brawls than grocery store brawls, for example.) - which brings me to the logical conclusion that people carrying guns into bars would be more dangerous than a lot of other places. Since most states do not allow people to carry concealed weapons into bars, obviously there are not going to be a lot of examples of why it's a bad idea, but to me it is just logically a bad idea. (Just my opinion of course, and I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #88 December 21, 2004 QuoteSure http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/Statutes/18-12-214.asp Ok. The only stubling block is if it is against a federal law to pack in a bar. Is that the case? I'm genuinely interested because I haven't lived in CO that long and if any JQ Public can have a gun in a bar, I will be extremely selective as to which establishments I frequent. Thanks for the info! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #89 December 21, 2004 Most bars here in Ohio that I've been to have already banned bottles by switching over to plastic bottles. It does a hell of a lot less damage when you get hit with an empty plastic beer bottle then a glass one. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #90 December 21, 2004 QuoteSorry, I did not realize that your original question was specific to bars, but in that case the very first incident I posted should work for you: Well this thread is a reason FOR carrying in bars. So it would be one to one, and yours was an accident, mine was 4 people murdered. QuoteAnd I can apply my general knowledge that alcohol tends to make people more dangerous (I hear of far more bar brawls than grocery store brawls, for example.) I know of FAR more road rage fights than bar fights. I have seen two fights in a Grocery Store. I have seen MANY more fights at a Retail store during shopping season. Quotewhich brings me to the logical conclusion that people carrying guns into bars would be more dangerous than a lot of other places. And I have a different conclusion. QuoteSince most states do not allow people to carry concealed weapons into bars, obviously there are not going to be a lot of examples of why it's a bad idea, but to me it is just logically a bad idea. Maybe since you assume it is a bad idea without any facts, others do as well? You still have not shown one case where a CCW used a weapon in a bar without provication. So how can you assume it is bad with no evidence?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #91 December 21, 2004 No federal law about bars and firearms.....that something regulated by the states and after all....this is "wild west"Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #92 December 21, 2004 QuoteMaking it legal for CCW folks will not increase the risk. But it might stop som Jackass from killing folks. I hear that argument all the time and the only proof given is speculation of what might have happened or what might be. I'd like to see some solid proof to that claim for once. And don't counter with asking me to prove otherwise. And what personality difference would their be from those that carry illegally now and those that would be illegal? Do you feel that a CCW somehows stops the idiots from having a gun?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #93 December 21, 2004 QuoteNo federal law about bars and firearms.....that something regulated by the states and after all....this is "wild west" Wow! Thanks for the info. It really distresses me that I have put my family into that kind of situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #94 December 21, 2004 QuoteI hear that argument all the time and the only proof given is speculation of what might have happened or what might be. I'd like to see some solid proof to that claim for once. And don't counter with asking me to prove otherwise. You have not been able to prove otherwise. QuoteAnd what personality difference would their be from those that carry illegally now and those that would be illegal? Do you feel that a CCW somehows stops the idiots from having a gun? The difference is this... The guy that is going to cary a gun illegally is going to carry one no matter what. Gale did not have a CCW but he carried a gun into a bar and used it. Four people are dead, and many others hurt. Right now the legal CCW's are denied protection from jackasses like that based on a law that will not stop the guy from illegally bringing a gun in. Like I asked you before. you hate Drunk Drivers...How do oyu think the family of the dead and injured in this bar think? And in this case it was pretty good odds that if this CCW had been allowed to carry, some might have lived. So right now there is a law in place that provides no security from the bad guys havng a gun, and only prevents the good guys from having one. Thats pretty stupid. And you can't prove otherwise...But since it does not fit into your anti carry agenda...It is clearly bad. I find it funny that I can carry in a library where there is little to no danger of a problem, but in a bar where there is a greater chance of someone attacking my GF I can't have a gun."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #95 December 21, 2004 QuoteI know of FAR more road rage fights than bar fights. I have seen two fights in a Grocery Store. I have seen MANY more fights at a Retail store during shopping season. Hmm, you're right... Maybe guns should just be banned altogether since so many people are incapable of controlling their anger. QuoteSo how can you assume it is bad with no evidence? I gave you some evidence. If you want more evidence of the dangers of mixing alcohol and guns (which is what happens when you carry a gun into a bar), just do a search on the Internet - you'll find plenty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #96 December 21, 2004 Quote You have not been able to prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on those that want to make the change. You can't give any proof, can you?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #97 December 21, 2004 Quote Because when it comes to firearms, worst case is loss of innocent life. In a bar, where one might large crowds, particularly at heavy metal concert in a small venue, it is easy to see how a situation could escalate to the point of death, when a black eye and broken nose would have been the alternative. Probably 95-99 percent of the licenseed carriers would not allow such a situation to escalate to that point. To believe that none of them would, though, is a little hard to believe. How do you distinguish one group from the other? That same logic can be applied to every potentially dangerous item. I could replace it with knives, metal pens, glass bottles, and more. Do you subscribe to the notion that all people must be restricted to prevent bad people from doing bad things? Where do you draw the line? Quote This does indeed sound rather odd. The above worst case seems absurdly far-fetched in such places the vast majority of the time. Where exactly are you allowed to carry? This varies state to state (and some states do not have preemtion laws, so it can vary city to city in some states). I am in New Jersey at the moment, so I am not allowed to carry anywhere, but that's another discussion. In CCW states, some places that are off limits are churches, school buildings or school grounds, and private property (different posting requirements). Some have more, some less. Courtrooms are universally off limits. The only limits I support are courtrooms, school buildings during school hours (except school employees), and private property. Anything else seems foolish, and just creates anoter VDZ.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #98 December 21, 2004 QuoteHere is a question... you go to a bar intending to be sober while carrying and while there you toss 2 back. Technically you were to put your gun away before you every touched the drink to your lips right? Everyone is saying they won't leave their gun in the car, what do you do in that case? You don't have the two drinks. Anything else is unacceptable.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #99 December 21, 2004 QuoteHmm, you're right... Maybe guns should just be banned altogether since so many people are incapable of controlling their anger. Great idea, lets ban guns so only the jackasses that want to hurt people and don't carea bout the law can do it...Only now they can do it without any fear."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #100 December 21, 2004 QuoteThe burden of proof is on those that want to make the change. You can't give any proof, can you? I would think the burden of proof should be on the guy trying to TAKE away a RIGHT from someone against the Bill of Rights. And normally I think you would agree...Except where it comes to something you don't like then its OK for you to trash the Bill of Rights. Like I said, what good is a gun in a library, when I can't defend my loved ones in places where they greatist chance of danger to them is?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
