Ohio Incident

[PhreeZone 20]

Here is a question... you go to a bar intending to be sober while carrying and while there you toss 2 back. Technically you were to put your gun away before you every touched the drink to your lips right? Everyone is saying they won't leave their gun in the car, what do you do in that case?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[markd_nscr986 0]

***However, in general, allowing firearms into bars, taverns, and similar venues would result in far more carnage than it would prevent.
It's just about the worst idea I've heard proposed in this forum, and that's saying something.


Where an idea is already a reality
CCW law in Colo. does not prohibit conceal carry in bars, liquor stores,adult entertainment venues or any other place where alcohol is served.Exceptions are schools or school property K-12 and public buildings where metal detectors are in place ie government buildings airports courthouses etc.
The "carnage" has yet to materialise

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Here is a question... you go to a bar intending to be sober while carrying and while there you toss 2 back. Technically you were to put your gun away before you every touched the drink to your lips right? Everyone is saying they won't leave their gun in the car, what do you do in that case?

In that case you've broken the law and risked your CCW. Most CCW carriers wouldn't do that. The same sense of lawfullness that they tap to not carry into where it's prohibited would also come into play when doing a prohibited activity. The problem is, carrying while drinking. Not carrying while being somewhere that you COULD be drinking. As in the drunk driver analogy above, it's like saying, you can't drive in order to keep people from driving while drunk.

[PhreeZone 20]

I know some clubs around here that have you check your keys at the door and you have to pass a breathalizer test to get them back. Would you be in support of something similar?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

I know some clubs around here that have you check your keys at the door and you have to pass a breathalizer test to get them back. Would you be in support of something similar?

What, check your gun at the door and take a breathalizer to get it back? No, that's ridiculous and even more restrictive. They can leave it in their car now and don't have to take a breathalizer to retrieve it. AND they still wouldn't be able to protect themselves.

Before you go looking for solutions, how about identifying the problem first. In PA and VT for sure, there are no restriction on carrying in bars. I'm sure there are other states as well. Can you find a single example of a CCW holder ever getting drunk in a bar and shooting anyone? If not, why are we going out of our way to pass laws to stop something that doesn't happen? Because it FEELS safer?

[3ringheathen 0]

Quote

Where an idea is already a reality
CCW law in Colo. does not prohibit conceal carry in bars, liquor stores,adult entertainment venues or any other place where alcohol is served.Exceptions are schools or school property K-12 and public buildings where metal detectors are in place ie government buildings airports courthouses etc.
The "carnage" has yet to materialise

OK. I didn't know that, and I'm quite surprised.
This isn't a subject I'm too passionate about, so I admit that I haven't done my homework.

When and if changes in my local laws become an issue, I'll read up on it before voting.
I'm sure someone in this forum will draw attention to it.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

So, if there wre a law outlawing carring when drinking instead of carrying when in an establishment that serves alcohol, what would be the difference other than allowing non-drinking CCWs the ability to carry?

Two reasons. First, if I was a bar owner or bouncer, I wouldn't want guns in my bar. Try to tell a person (or 4 persons) with a gun to leave.

Second, I often see a scenario. People taking part of a scene that they didn't create. A drunk starts something with another drunk and 4 of their friends join in. What if one was sober, but armed?

Someone is fighting with your friend, your friend is losing. You are sober, but armed. You would defend your friend, right?

Less than two weeks ago, I went out Christmas shopping with a female friend. Afterwards, we went to Bennigans to eat (the outside cafe part).

Before we sat down, a drunk three tables over YELLS, "that chick could suck my c***". The drunk had 3 friends with him.

I walked over and told him to watch his mouth.
He told me to "go f*** myself". I told his friends that they should take care of the situation.

If things had progressed, I wouldn't have wanted one of his sober friends to have a gun.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Someone is fighting with your friend, your friend is losing. You are sober, but armed. You would defend your friend, right?

No. The first responsibility of a CCW holder is to avoid confrontation. And 99.9% of them know that and do that. You obviously aren't one, or you wouldn't have gone up and confronted that drunk risking an altercation.

I say again. PA and VT allow you to carry in bars. Hell, you can carry drunk. There's no restriction on it. There are probably other states as well.

You're arguing from the stance of hypotheticals. Well, there are real world places where the restrictions you support don't exist. Please tell me when a CCW holder ever used a gun in a bar where he wasn't found to be in the right in defending himself from unprovoked attack and in threat of serious injury or death?

Hypothetically, assholes are more likely to start a bar fight than other people. Should we ban assholes from bars?

Find ONE real world example of a single crime that would have been prevented in the states where this restriction does not exist. Then I'll consider it. Until then, it's bull shit, plain and simple.

[Botellines 0]

Quote

Hypothetically, assholes are more likely to start a bar fight than other people. Should we ban assholes from bars?

Affirmative, that is the job of the bouncer.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

Hypothetically, assholes are more likely to start a bar fight than other people. Should we ban assholes from bars?

Affirmative, that is the job of the bouncer.

Ahhh......you just hit on the distintion, bud. When someone ACTS like an asshole, they are kicked out. But they aren't kept out for being an asshole. I'm an asshole and I get into bars all the time. Now if while I was there, I started cursing at people and bumping into them, I might get kicked out.

It's the difference between punishing someone for being something that could POTENTIALLY be a problem, or punishing someone for somethng they have done.

I'll ask for a third time. Someone find me an example of this being a problem where a ban does not exist. Otherwise it's bull shit.

[Ron 10]

Quote

This clearly was an incident where training in such a scenario is essential, IMO. I'm not sure that a private citizen, no matter how good a marksman, would improve things in a totally chaotic crowded situation unless specifically trained for that.

Come on John, its not rocket science

Pull out your weapon and shoot the guy. He had time to stop and reload.

At that time you could have even told him to freeze before shooting him.

And its not like it would have done more harm.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

Here is a question... you go to a bar intending to be sober while carrying and while there you toss 2 back. Technically you were to put your gun away before you every touched the drink to your lips right? Everyone is saying they won't leave their gun in the car, what do you do in that case?

Don't toss the two back.

How hard is that? I have a fridge filled with beer on the DZ, but I don't drink and go make a jump. My rigger has bottles and vottles of rum in her loft, but she does not pack drunk.

I was at the fire pit in Zhills and someone handed me a beer, I gave it back and told them I could not.

Easy if you are armed, you don't drink....How hard is that?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

1) Do you think that citizen would have the ability to shoot another person, and to shoot accuratly enough to hit the shooter, and just the shooter? Even been to a small venue concert?

According to the report he was a few feet away and in his own words could have done something....Are you saying you know better than him what he could have done since he was there and you were not?

Quote

2) Dimebag was shot in the face - two quick shots to the face in a matter of seconds would have ended his life even if there was someone with a gun in the building. Everyone thought the guy was part of the act and allowed him to go on stage and approach him. Dimebag was dead the second that guy stepped on stage. 25 seconds to draw another gun would not have saved a life - it doesn't matter how long it took the cops to get there....what matters is how long before he received critcal care. From some of the reports I have head, Dimebag was dead the moment he hit the ground.

3 others were also killed. Dimebag was dead, but the others might have lived. And several others were shot that didn't need to be. Since you were hurt by a drunk driver...How would you feel if you took permament damage from a shooter, and that didn't need to happen?

Quote

Abbott, 38, and three other people were fatally shot at a club in Columbus, Ohio, last Wednesday by Nathan Gale, 25, who was killed by police. Abbott was performing with DAMAGEPLAN, the metal band he formed with his brother, Vinnie Paul Abbott, after leaving PANTERA.

Quote

3) The shooter ended up dead anyhow, the only thing that changed was the location of his death since there was no gun in the theatre.

3 more died and several more were wounded. It might not have happend like that if the guy was allowed to carry....I don't see how it could have gone much worse. Gale had time to RELOAD and continue his killing spree.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Don't toss the two back.

How hard is that? I have a fridge filled with beer on the DZ, but I don't drink and go make a jump. My rigger has bottles and vottles of rum in her loft, but she does not pack drunk.

I was at the fire pit in Zhills and someone handed me a beer, I gave it back and told them I could not.

Easy if you are armed, you don't drink....How hard is that?

Funny comparison, cause there are plenty skydivers who jump drunk or stoned and see nothing wrong with it.

Same as saying easy if you drink don't drive, yet there are thousands of people annually who have a problem with that.

Or, are you now going to tell me that gun owners are better citizens than non-gun owners?

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Funny comparison, cause there are plenty skydivers who jump drunk or stoned and see nothing wrong with it.

Same as saying easy if you drink don't drive, yet there are thousands of people annually who have a problem with that.

Or, are you now going to tell me that gun owners are better citizens than non-gun owners?

Right, so to be equitable, we should ban people from driving or skydiving because they might do it drunk.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Funny comparison, cause there are plenty skydivers who jump drunk or stoned and see nothing wrong with it.

Same as saying easy if you drink don't drive, yet there are thousands of people annually who have a problem with that.

Or, are you now going to tell me that gun owners are better citizens than non-gun owners?

I didn't say that, but you assume that anyone with a gun is going to get drunk and shoot someone. How much sense does that make?

I'd bet more obey the law than go out and kill someone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I didn't say that, but you assume that anyone with a gun is going to get drunk and shoot someone. How much sense does that make?

Not at all, quite the opposite is the case.....Yourself, PK and Kennedy seem to be claiming that a CCW would never get drunk while carrying a weapon. I guess that does make sense

[Ron 10]

Quote

Not at all, quite the opposite is the case.....Yourself, PK and Kennedy seem to be claiming that a CCW would never get drunk while carrying a weapon. I guess that does make sense

I never said that, but you are claiming that a guy with a gun will get drunk and a blood bath will erupt.

I said *I* didn't, and I bet a lot more would not than would.

For the most part people who carry *LEGALLY* do follow the law more.

The problem is those that carry ILLEGALLY, and the law will not affect them at all anyway.

But then again people drink and drive and its illegal.

But you have no evidence that a CCW holder would be a greater risk in a club or bar. But you would rather just remove the legal right to carry.


You see GALE carried a weapon illegally. The law didn't prevent him from killing 4 people.

But the law did prevent a guy from maybe being able to stop it, and it DID prevent him from protecting himself.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Someone is fighting with your friend, your friend is losing. You are sober, but armed. You would defend your friend, right?

No. The first responsibility of a CCW holder is to avoid confrontation. And 99.9% of them know that and do that. You obviously aren't one, or you wouldn't have gone up and confronted that drunk risking an altercation.

Nope, I'm a redneck. I don't particularly like that aspect of my personality either.

I believe that bad people take advantage of others by using their good nature against them. In this case, there was a bunch of nice people sitting at the other tables and putting up with crap from this guy. I don't think that is fair or right, but that is their choice.

It was also the managers responsibility to handle it, that wasn't being done.

When he started messing with me, then I got to choose how to handle it. I was looking for an opportunity to add 4 lines to his health record.

People like that irritate me a lot. An ass-whipping is my solution to their lack of social skills. Next time, they think before they run their mouth. Plus, they get to provide an example to other idiots. It makes the world a better place.

Quote

You're arguing from the stance of hypotheticals. Well, there are real world places where the restrictions you support don't exist. Please tell me when a CCW holder ever used a gun in a bar where he wasn't found to be in the right in defending himself from unprovoked attack and in threat of serious injury or death?

Defending themself in a situation? How did the situation build to that point?

Things tend to diffuse a little easier when they are handled in the regular manner. If someone has a hidden knife, they believe they are in a commanding position. They don't back down or discuss, so it escalates to the next level easily.

A gun is the ultimate trump-card in those situations.

Quote

Find ONE real world example of a single crime that would have been prevented in the states where this restriction does not exist. Then I'll consider it. Until then, it's bull shit, plain and simple.

Examples can be argued. I don't see a point in providing them anyway. I have my opinion for no other reason than observations from my life.

The drinking age in Florida was once 18. A lot of immature kids got into events that cost them some pain. Hormones+attitude+alchohol = bleeding.

Sometimes it gets to the fight stage, but three weeks later, the parties apologize for their actions and are ok with it. "I was a drunken butthead, sorry about that."

Once a knife or gun comes out, there is no apology.

Guns in Tampa clubs

Quote

2 bouncers shot at Ybor City nightclub; 1 dies

TAMPA -- An argument over a knit cap led to the shooting death of a nightclub bouncer early Friday and the arrest of a Tampa man hours later.
...

The man obliged. But he later put the colorful cap back on, prompting the bouncers, Philip Harris and John Rossiter, both 23, to approach him again, police said. They scuffled, and the man's friend pulled out a gun.

Harris and Rossiter were both shot in the stomach.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Guns in Tampa clubs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2 bouncers shot at Ybor City nightclub; 1 dies

TAMPA -- An argument over a knit cap led to the shooting death of a nightclub bouncer early Friday and the arrest of a Tampa man hours later.
...

The man obliged. But he later put the colorful cap back on, prompting the bouncers, Philip Harris and John Rossiter, both 23, to approach him again, police said. They scuffled, and the man's friend pulled out a gun.

Harris and Rossiter were both shot in the stomach.

Was that guy a CCW holder?

If not then your logic is faulty.

Show me cases of a CCW shooting someone without provication and we can talk.

But some jackass in a bar illegally carring a weapon does not support your argument, it supports ours.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Show me cases of a CCW shooting someone without provication and we can talk.

Here is a long list of incidents involving CCW holders:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=incident&menu=gvr

[PhillyKev 0]

Which one of those would have been prevented by banning guns in establishments that serve alcohol?

[wildblue 7]

1) I don't want any yahoo that's sat through a couple hours of class to get his/her CCW to "save me" if I end up in a bad situation. I personally think it's more likely to cause more problems than it fixes. Everyone wants to be a hero.

2) Had the guy shot him, he probably would have been sued by the gunman's family or some shit.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Tink1717 2]

Quote

However, the Ohio Concealed Carry law prohibits carry into any area or function that serves alcohol. The Villa serves at least beer, so no legal carry.

Yeah, that provision worked out real well for the guitarist and the crowd that night.

So you are saying that firearms and drinking ARE a good mix? Just kidding, but OTOH, I wouldn't feel safe knowing the intoxicated can have access to firearms. I mean they do enough damage with non arms ( chairs, stools, cues, etc...) already. Adding firearms to the mix just seems like fighting a fire with a gasoline hose.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Which one of those would have been prevented by banning guns in establishments that serve alcohol?

Well, that's not the question I was replying to, but:

Quote

On November 14, 2001, a gun carried by 32-year-old Cesar Solis accidentally went off in a Chester County, PA, tavern, injuring three people including himself – one seriously. Solis was charged with two counts of aggravated assault, two counts of recklessly endangering another person, and one count of discharging a weapon in a building. Police said Solis, who had a permit to carry the gun, was at the Birch Inn late Sunday night with his brother when Cesar Solis pulled the gun from his waistband. The gun discharged and hit his brother and Sandra Pierson, who was seated at a nearby table.

The scary thing is that most of these incidents do not involve alcohol, so I think throwing alcohol into the mix will only mean a lot more incidents.

The CCW holder in Ohio may have saved some lives if he had been armed, or he may have made the situation worse. We'll never know... Either way, I don't think guns belong in bars.