Jimbo 0
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QuoteQuoteInstead, I'd much rather see laws against being in possession of a firearm while intoxicated.
Jim
Wow, good idea! I'd like to see the same thing for being intoxicated while driving! Oh wait, that's right, we do have that and it works so well (don't mind my bitterness, I have a permanent injury from getting hit by a drunk)
So, I take it you think banning all driving is the answer?
QuoteSo, I take it you think banning all driving is the answer?
Where did I say that? I don't know the answer, but the education that MADD and SADD do are much better than any rhetoric the NRA tosses around.
There will always be idiots out there - one of them is a friend of mine - after he rolled his 2nd truck while being drunk they suspended his license for life.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
kallend 2,148
QuoteQuoteInstead, I'd much rather see laws against being in possession of a firearm while intoxicated.
Jim
Wow, good idea! I'd like to see the same thing for being intoxicated while driving! Oh wait, that's right, we do have that and it works so well (don't mind my bitterness, I have a permanent injury from getting hit by a drunk)
I'm not allowed to fly my plane within 8 hours of having an alcoholic drink. It seems reasonable to me, I comply with the rule.
I see no reason guns should not be treated the same way.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote
I see no reason guns should not be treated the same way.
Nor do I...but most hunters that I know bring booze with them into the woods.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
Kennedy 0
QuoteI'm not allowed to fly my plane within 8 hours of having an alcoholic drink. It seems reasonable to me, I comply with the rule.
I see no reason guns should not be treated the same way.
So you support being able to carry in establishments that serve alcohol then?
Afterall, you're not banned from flying with hours of leaving a bar, are you? Just within hours of drinking, right?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
QuoteWhere did I say that? I don't know the answer, but the education that MADD and SADD do are much better than any rhetoric the NRA tosses around.
Well, if better is a measure of effectiveness, then the NRA is doing much better than the DD groups. You should realize that the NRA is the largest and most comprehensive source of trianing on firearms today.
QuoteThere will always be idiots out there - one of them is a friend of mine - after he rolled his 2nd truck while being drunk they suspended his license for life.
Some people prove they can't be trusted with responsibility. Does that mean we all should suffer for their lack of discipline/ training/ respect/ reliability?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
QuoteWell, if better is a measure of effectiveness, then the NRA is doing much better than the DD groups. You should realize that the NRA is the largest and most comprehensive source of trianing on firearms today.
Only because the NRA has more money. Give MADD or SADD as much money as the NRA has and lets see how well they do. I wonder what they would do with the lobby power???
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
councilman24 37
From another internet forum, first hand account by CCW holder.
"http://www.ofcc.net/news.html
From: Roger
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: columbus shooting helpless victims
My name is Roger [last name redacted]. My wife and I were at the Al Rosa Villa Dec. 8th for the concert that had several fatal shootings. We were standing right in front of the band member that was fatally shot when it all happened.
All I can say is that I felt SOOO helpless in there. We have been there 5-6 times in 3 years for various events, all of which without personal protection. We are both licenced to carry concealed. I leave my firearm at home for these types of events because of the law. The 'Villa serves alcohol, so no guns. I leave it at home instead of in the car because of the crime (I'd hate to lose my 1911 to a criminal).
Well, last night it all became clear to me. WOW! I stood not 5 feet from a man that was discharging his weapon into the band members head, shoulder and abdomen, then waving and shooting into the audience. I watched as he swapped clips, then I watched as he ran behind the stage where I heard several more rounds fired. I WATCHED!!!
Wow. I could not get far with the panic. I tried to drop to the floor, but my wife would not let me drop because of fear of being trampled. I also have a prosthetic leg. While I have [good] mobility I know when I need to wait for the crowd. So, as I stated a bit ago, I WATCHED!!!
I can not even begin to express the fear I have of crowds now. I felt so helpless to just have to ride it out and to have been lucky enough not to have been shot. I will think very hard before I go into the next victim zone! Feeling this way sucks!
Before last night I would only carry on few dates if I knew I could carry the whole time. Now I am installing my Fingerprint lock safe in our main vehicle so I can feel as safe as possible.
A police officer may have arrived quick and shot the suspect dead, but it was too late for many people!
Roger
Commentary:
This Ohio CHL-holder was standing less than 5 feet away from Nathan Gale when he drew his pistol. But because Roger is a law-abiding citizen, and was obeying Ohio law which bans firearms in any location that serves liquor by the drink, he could do nothing - nothing but watch people die.
This incident reinforces the fact that disarmament zones only disarm honest, law-abiding citizens; not the criminals who prey upon them.
This mass killer broke scores of firearms, liquor and criminal laws in committing this rampage. These same laws did nothing to protect the law-abiding citizens at this event.
Under current Ohio law, bearing handguns for self-defense in establishments which serve drinks under a Class D liquor license is illegal, even for employees. In fact, Ohio's law would prevent SECURITY at this nightclub from carrying a handgun, even if the club owner had wanted them to do so.
When the Ohio House of Representatives passed Sub. House Bill 12 in 2003, specific exemptions were contained to allow bar owners to protect themselves and their patrons. This provision was stripped from the final bill by the state Senate.
Many other states allow concealed handgun license-holders to enter into liquor establishments, and even to consume alcohol, so long as they do not drink to the point of impairment.
Ohio's complete ban on self-defense in liquor establishments has proven time and again to be a complete failure. It is time for Ohio to join the other state's who have recognized there is nothing to fear from law-abiding citizens who choose to defend themselves."
Explained is why he didn't have a firearm, on his person or in his car. Explained is why he wasn't allowed to carry. And I can't think of a much cleaner field of fire than up onto a stage and up into the back stage area/ceiling.
In MI originally we couldn't carry into anyplace that served alcohol. And we couldn't carry with BL above 0.02. That included every chain and local restraunt that sold alcohol. So, if I wanted to go to Olive Garden instead of McDonald's I had to leave it in the car. I actually could have a beer or two staying below 0.08 driving limit. But, then I had to unload and lock in case in the trunk. A lot of firearm handling in public. This was changed with a rewrite to only prohibit carry in businesses getting 50% of revenue from alcohol, basically bars versus restraunts. So now I can join my friends and have iced tea.
The basic flaw in having illegal carry zones are that the bad guys DON'T CARE. They by definition are already breaking the law. Where as the good guys who follow the law are, by definition, unarmed because they are good guys.
"http://www.ofcc.net/news.html
From: Roger
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: columbus shooting helpless victims
My name is Roger [last name redacted]. My wife and I were at the Al Rosa Villa Dec. 8th for the concert that had several fatal shootings. We were standing right in front of the band member that was fatally shot when it all happened.
All I can say is that I felt SOOO helpless in there. We have been there 5-6 times in 3 years for various events, all of which without personal protection. We are both licenced to carry concealed. I leave my firearm at home for these types of events because of the law. The 'Villa serves alcohol, so no guns. I leave it at home instead of in the car because of the crime (I'd hate to lose my 1911 to a criminal).
Well, last night it all became clear to me. WOW! I stood not 5 feet from a man that was discharging his weapon into the band members head, shoulder and abdomen, then waving and shooting into the audience. I watched as he swapped clips, then I watched as he ran behind the stage where I heard several more rounds fired. I WATCHED!!!
Wow. I could not get far with the panic. I tried to drop to the floor, but my wife would not let me drop because of fear of being trampled. I also have a prosthetic leg. While I have [good] mobility I know when I need to wait for the crowd. So, as I stated a bit ago, I WATCHED!!!
I can not even begin to express the fear I have of crowds now. I felt so helpless to just have to ride it out and to have been lucky enough not to have been shot. I will think very hard before I go into the next victim zone! Feeling this way sucks!
Before last night I would only carry on few dates if I knew I could carry the whole time. Now I am installing my Fingerprint lock safe in our main vehicle so I can feel as safe as possible.
A police officer may have arrived quick and shot the suspect dead, but it was too late for many people!
Roger
Commentary:
This Ohio CHL-holder was standing less than 5 feet away from Nathan Gale when he drew his pistol. But because Roger is a law-abiding citizen, and was obeying Ohio law which bans firearms in any location that serves liquor by the drink, he could do nothing - nothing but watch people die.
This incident reinforces the fact that disarmament zones only disarm honest, law-abiding citizens; not the criminals who prey upon them.
This mass killer broke scores of firearms, liquor and criminal laws in committing this rampage. These same laws did nothing to protect the law-abiding citizens at this event.
Under current Ohio law, bearing handguns for self-defense in establishments which serve drinks under a Class D liquor license is illegal, even for employees. In fact, Ohio's law would prevent SECURITY at this nightclub from carrying a handgun, even if the club owner had wanted them to do so.
When the Ohio House of Representatives passed Sub. House Bill 12 in 2003, specific exemptions were contained to allow bar owners to protect themselves and their patrons. This provision was stripped from the final bill by the state Senate.
Many other states allow concealed handgun license-holders to enter into liquor establishments, and even to consume alcohol, so long as they do not drink to the point of impairment.
Ohio's complete ban on self-defense in liquor establishments has proven time and again to be a complete failure. It is time for Ohio to join the other state's who have recognized there is nothing to fear from law-abiding citizens who choose to defend themselves."
Explained is why he didn't have a firearm, on his person or in his car. Explained is why he wasn't allowed to carry. And I can't think of a much cleaner field of fire than up onto a stage and up into the back stage area/ceiling.
In MI originally we couldn't carry into anyplace that served alcohol. And we couldn't carry with BL above 0.02. That included every chain and local restraunt that sold alcohol. So, if I wanted to go to Olive Garden instead of McDonald's I had to leave it in the car. I actually could have a beer or two staying below 0.08 driving limit. But, then I had to unload and lock in case in the trunk. A lot of firearm handling in public. This was changed with a rewrite to only prohibit carry in businesses getting 50% of revenue from alcohol, basically bars versus restraunts. So now I can join my friends and have iced tea.
The basic flaw in having illegal carry zones are that the bad guys DON'T CARE. They by definition are already breaking the law. Where as the good guys who follow the law are, by definition, unarmed because they are good guys.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE
QuoteAm I hearing another "blood running in the streets" prediction?
Drunks with guns is a bad idea.
From personal experience?
At 12 years old, a bar/diner/pool hall near our hunting camp... drunk 1 starts a fight, drunk 2 whacks him. drunk 1 pull knife, drunk 2 takes knife away and whacks him. drunk 1 goes to parking lot and waits for drunk 2 with a .410 and blows off the face of drunk 2. He takes 4 hours to die.
At 18, best friends buying each other beers. Each takes a turn buying. They forget whose turn it is. Drunk 1 pulls a knife. Drunk 2 goes to a car for a pistol and returns to kill drunk 1.
At 20, drunk is hassled (in his view) by police walking through the bar and doing ID checks. Drunk then gets a .22 rifle from his trunk and shoots up the police car.
I have seen so many bar fights that I couldn't begin to count. During the course of many, a knife got pulled and things escalated. A week after a fist fight, people can forgive a momentary lapse of reason. Not so after a gun fight.
My personal rules (since 20 years old):
1. Never bet money on pool.
2. Never carry a knife in a bar.
3. Few principles or opinions are worth defending to the point of violence.
People are incredibly stupid when drunk. I don't think that giving incredibly stupid drunks a gun is a defensible view.
PhreeZone 20
Ohio's CCW law was only passed last year and only came into effect mid this year. The system is already swamped with people trying to get permits... and everyone is already blasting the system as screwed up? 
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
QuotePeople are incredibly stupid when drunk. I don't think that giving incredibly stupid drunks a gun is a defensible view.
So, if there wre a law outlawing carring when drinking instead of carrying when in an establishment that serves alcohol, what would be the difference other than allowing non-drinking CCWs the ability to carry?
QuoteThe citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?
From someone whos been to god knows how many concerts from Depeche Mode at Doger Stadium to watching Sublime perfom at a small coffee shop in San Pedro that scenario is a bit unrealistic. I've been to a few concerts where fights have broken out, a few knife fights too and all I can say is all they have one thing in common: when this shit hits the fan people want to get the f out and if it means running over anyone then so be it. There were 200 people at this venue and it looked like a small crowded place. Do you actually think you could resist 1/2 of these people rushing to get out and get a clear shot. I'm not against a CCW holder, just saying it's a bit unrealistic what you've described.
Kennedy 0
Did you read councilman24's post?
According to that, the disarmed CCW holder was five feet from the shooter. Not quite your "fighting half the crowd" scenario, is it?
Either of us can create hypotheticals with the best- and worst-case scenarios. I just don't understand why some people want to base legal policy on only the worst case possibilities.
According to that, the disarmed CCW holder was five feet from the shooter. Not quite your "fighting half the crowd" scenario, is it?
Either of us can create hypotheticals with the best- and worst-case scenarios. I just don't understand why some people want to base legal policy on only the worst case possibilities.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
I wouldn't say the system is screwed up, just this particular Victim Disarmament Zone section of the law.
(my other gripe is CCW laws that create VDZs in parks and parking lots)
(my other gripe is CCW laws that create VDZs in parks and parking lots)
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
Quote
Drunks with guns is a bad idea.
I agree, that's why I would make it illegal to carry while drunk.
You don't have to go toa bar to be drunk, right?
But what's the problem with sober people who want to go to a bar and stay sober? Why shouldn't they be able to defend themselves from the violent people you described?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
jcd11235 0
QuoteI just don't understand why some people want to base legal policy on only the worst case possibilities.
Because when it comes to firearms, worst case is loss of innocent life. In a bar, where one might large crowds, particularly at heavy metal concert in a small venue, it is easy to see how a situation could escalate to the point of death, when a black eye and broken nose would have been the alternative. Probably 95-99 percent of the licenseed carriers would not allow such a situation to escalate to that point. To believe that none of them would, though, is a little hard to believe. How do you distinguish one group from the other?
Quote(my other gripe is CCW laws that create VDZs in parks and parking lots)
This does indeed sound rather odd. The above worst case seems absurdly far-fetched in such places the vast majority of the time. Where exactly are you allowed to carry?
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
And laws such as this don't stop criminals from carrying whereever they'd like to, and drunks from driving whenever they want to, anyhow. I'm with Kennedy, this sounds like another 'blood running in the streets', or perhaps your phrase 'blood running in the bars' scenario.
-
Jim
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
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