Ohio Incident

[Kennedy 0]

We've all heard about the shooting in Ohio. Nathan Gale, Al Rosa Villa, December 8th, guitarist, etc.

We've established that there really is not area that can be kept clear of deadly weapons (not airports, not clubs, not concert venues). Well, we can establish that law abiding citizens can't carry in those place, but since when are the law abiding among us the problem?

Aparently there was an Ohio CCW permit holder right there at the foot of the stage, not ten feet from the shooter. However, the Ohio Concealed Carry law prohibits carry into any area or function that serves alcohol. The Villa serves at least beer, so no legal carry.

Yeah, that provision worked out real well for the guitarist and the crowd that night.

When will they learn that Victim Disarmament Zones are not helping people?

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[PhreeZone 20]

It would be the Alrosa Villa and from the local news reports around here the CCW holder did'nt even have a gun in the car. So he would have been no help anyways.

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[kallend 2,148]

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We've all heard about the shooting in Ohio. Nathan Gale, Al Rosa Villa, December 8th, guitarist, etc.

We've established that there really is not area that can be kept clear of deadly weapons (not airports, not clubs, not concert venues). Well, we can establish that law abiding citizens can't carry in those place, but since when are the law abiding among us the problem?

Aparently there was an Ohio CCW permit holder right there at the foot of the stage, not ten feet from the shooter. However, the Ohio Concealed Carry law prohibits carry into any area or function that serves alcohol. The Villa serves at least beer, so no legal carry.

Yeah, that provision worked out real well for the guitarist and the crowd that night.

When will they learn that Victim Disarmament Zones are not helping people?

OK, say the CCW holder had his gun there. Describe the ensuing scenario as you see it unfolding. Be realistic about time to get his gun out, figure out who was doing the shooting, crowd panic, etc.

...

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[Kennedy 0]

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It would be the Alrosa Villa and from the local news reports around here the CCW holder did'nt even have a gun in the car. So he would have been no help anyways.

I don't bring my gun with me when I have to go into a building that doesn't allow carry. (of course I prefer to avoid these buildings all together)

I don't like leaving it in my car for risk of a smash and grab theft. Therefor his not having left it in the car is not indicative that he wouldn't have had it on him if it were allowed.

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[Kennedy 0]

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OK, say the CCW holder had his gun there. Describe the ensuing scenario as you see it unfolding. Be realistic about time to get his gun out, figure out who was doing the shooting, crowd panic, etc.

I'm sure there would have been confusion and delay between Gale's first shots and deploying the CCW. Gale was able to reload and continue firing. Four people were killed an two other wounded. Gale also took a hostage when police responded.

The citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?

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[kallend 2,148]

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OK, say the CCW holder had his gun there. Describe the ensuing scenario as you see it unfolding. Be realistic about time to get his gun out, figure out who was doing the shooting, crowd panic, etc.

I'm sure there would have been confusion and delay between Gale's first shots and deploying the CCW. Gale was able to reload and continue firing. Four people were killed an two other wounded. Gale also took a hostage when police responded.

The citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?

And what do you think Gale, who already had his gun out, would have done?

This clearly was an incident where training in such a scenario is essential, IMO. I'm not sure that a private citizen, no matter how good a marksman, would improve things in a totally chaotic crowded situation unless specifically trained for that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Botellines 0]

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Well, we can establish that law abiding citizens can't carry in those place, but since when are the law abiding among us the problem?

Everybody is a law abiding citizen until they stop being a law abiding citizen. And when that comes, i much prefer that those ex-law abiding citizens do not have a gun at hand reach.

[TypicalFish 0]

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OK, say the CCW holder had his gun there. Describe the ensuing scenario as you see it unfolding. Be realistic about time to get his gun out, figure out who was doing the shooting, crowd panic, etc.

I'm sure there would have been confusion and delay between Gale's first shots and deploying the CCW. Gale was able to reload and continue firing. Four people were killed an two other wounded. Gale also took a hostage when police responded.

The citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?

So let's continue with the scenario; in the confusion and panic, he mistakenly shoots and kills two additional patrons who happened to be in the rapidly changing target background before he tags the gunman.

Just how far back do you think that would set the CC laws? Think they would become the subject of debate? Or possibly revision? I don't know what the requirements are for a carry permit in Ohio, but do they include real world tactical training; i.e., a shootout in a nightclub, or are you just hoping his range skills will translate?

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[rickjump1 0]

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The citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?

The CCW could have saved the day and became an instant hero. People who bend rules often get away with it as long as NOTHING GOES WRONG. What if the CCW had consumed a large amount of alcohol and stumbled, shooting an innocent bystander? Yes, he could have stumbled sober. There is also a difference between being current and being proficient; kind of like night flying. Wonder if this guy could have made the grade in a stress situation like this. I guess we will never know.

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[PhreeZone 20]

Ohio CCW permit requirements are shooting a min score on paper targets at I think 10 meters and getting a sign off from the local sherriff and passing the test. Its not really hard at all.

From all accounts all chaos broke loose after the first 4 shots where shot into Darrell and it was a mad dash for the exits from everyone. I seriously doubt that anyone would have been able to wade back through the out going crowd to shoot upwards onto a stage covered with lots of cover for the shooter. There were speakers, drums, amps and smoke machines providing cover for th stage.

The police responded in less then 2 minutes.

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[Paige 0]

An ex of mine was working that night. His friend was the security guy that was killed. This was a tragic event. The shooter fired 25 times which requires reloading by my calculations. If police had been onsite I'm sure they would have used this time to seize the shooter. The owner is now in jail and said that 10 police would not have made a difference. I beg to differ. I agree that a situation like this requires an experienced marksman. Most citizens would not have the training to make a difference with a gun in a crowd, cluster fuck like that.

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[Jimbo 0]

The owner is jail? Why?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
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[Kennedy 0]

The CCW holder in question was basically already at the foot of the stage. He wouldn't have had to fight his way to the stage or anythign like that. He actually couldn't get away from the stage with the fleeing crowd due to a prosthetic leg.

Kallend, be careful you don't attribute rational thoughts to an obviously irrational man. Gale was scanning the crowd for threat or shooting targets. He was firing blindly into a fleeing mass of people after Diamond went down.

As to the cover afforded a person on stage, all accounts put Gale right at center stage in the opne area used by performers, not in the tangle of equipment border the sides and rear of the stage.

For man standing near the foot of the stage looking up at a lunatic shooting over his head into the commotion of the crowd, it wouldn't have been that hard to draw and fire without being noticed.

There also wouldn't have been a hostage scenario that occured later when the first officer arrived.

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[Kennedy 0]

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So let's continue with the scenario; in the confusion and panic, he mistakenly shoots and kills two additional patrons who happened to be in the rapidly changing target background before he tags the gunman.

Just how far back do you think that would set the CC laws? Think they would become the subject of debate? Or possibly revision? I don't know what the requirements are for a carry permit in Ohio, but do they include real world tactical training; i.e., a shootout in a nightclub, or are you just hoping his range skills will translate?

CCW requirements don't call for tactical training for a shootout in a night club. They don't call fortactical training for a shootout in a parking lot or a library either. Should those areas be off limits?

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The CCW could have saved the day and became an instant hero. People who bend rules often get away with it as long as NOTHING GOES WRONG. What if the CCW had consumed a large amount of alcohol and stumbled, shooting an innocent bystander? Yes, he could have stumbled sober. There is also a difference between being current and being proficient; kind of like night flying. Wonder if this guy could have made the grade in a stress situation like this. I guess we will never know.

I can say the same what ifs for any responding police officer. Does that mean cops should be disarmed as well? Cops have hit bystanders in the past. It happens.

Cops aren't the jedi of the gun, with some mystical proficiency. Most don't recieve the type of training you are talking about, either. SWAT training is for SWAT units. Tactical units receive superior training.

However, as to the "what if he consumed a large amount of liquor" comment, there is a simple answer: being drunk while carrying is universally illegal. Where the line is drawn varies state to state, but people who carry legally know that alcohol and gun powder don't mix.

Why outlaw places where liquor is sold instead of simply outlawing being drunk? Why create another victim disarmament zone?

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[TypicalFish 0]

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CCW requirements don't call for tactical training for a shootout in a night club. They don't call fortactical training for a shootout in a parking lot or a library either. Should those areas be off limits?

Honestly, I don't feel qualified to answer that question; not having a strong enough understanding of the basis under which such permits are issued. However, I do think you raise a good point.

The intent of my observation was to point out that you are assuming that the situation would have been ended positively by the CCW holder just because he was there and had a firearm, and I think that is a stretch.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Paige 0]

No idea, just word from an employee. I'll find out if I can, sorta hard to just come out and ask that kind of stuff while he's grieving for the loss of two friends.

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[PhreeZone 20]

As of Thursdays Other Paper and Dispatch the Rock and Roll Reverand was still conducting limited interviews and basically not saying much.

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And tomorrow is a mystery

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[Jimbo 0]

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The intent of my observation was to point out that you are assuming that the situation would have been ended positively by the CCW holder just because he was there and had a firearm, and I think that is a stretch.

How is that different than the other assumptions in this thread that the CCW holder would have been ineffective or perhaps even made the situation worse?

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Jim

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[jcd11235 0]

While I have never seen Damageplan, I have seen Pantera in a small venue. If you were inside the building, you were in the pit, or pinned against a wall. The scene is plenty chaotic, even without a gunmen.

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[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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OK, say the CCW holder had his gun there. Describe the ensuing scenario as you see it unfolding. Be realistic about time to get his gun out, figure out who was doing the shooting, crowd panic, etc.

I'm sure there would have been confusion and delay between Gale's first shots and deploying the CCW. Gale was able to reload and continue firing. Four people were killed an two other wounded. Gale also took a hostage when police responded.

The citizen could have been stunned, reacted, moved to the small cover offered by teh front of the stage, lifted his shirt, drawn, aimed, and fired in what, 25 seconds, tops? How long did it take for police to arrive?

1) Do you think that citizen would have the ability to shoot another person, and to shoot accuratly enough to hit the shooter, and just the shooter? Even been to a small venue concert? I have, a few hundred times. I've been to concerts where huge fights break out and I have taken some hits from the cops as they went after the perps because it was so crowded (I watched one person get pushed off a stage and bust his femur). A gun in an event like that?? Did you see what happened in Chicago with the mass exodus to the exit at Club E? Or the panic after the fire at the Station with the Great White concert?

2) Dimebag was shot in the face - two quick shots to the face in a matter of seconds would have ended his life even if there was someone with a gun in the building. Everyone thought the guy was part of the act and allowed him to go on stage and approach him. Dimebag was dead the second that guy stepped on stage. 25 seconds to draw another gun would not have saved a life - it doesn't matter how long it took the cops to get there....what matters is how long before he received critcal care. From some of the reports I have head, Dimebag was dead the moment he hit the ground.

3) The shooter ended up dead anyhow, the only thing that changed was the location of his death since there was no gun in the theatre.

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[TypicalFish 0]

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The intent of my observation was to point out that you are assuming that the situation would have been ended positively by the CCW holder just because he was there and had a firearm, and I think that is a stretch.

How is that different than the other assumptions in this thread that the CCW holder would have been ineffective or perhaps even made the situation worse?

-
Jim

It's not, but I am not the one saying he would have "saved the day", either. He very well could have.

Or not. THAT'S my point. Just saying that he would have because he was there is a fallacy. And that was the original post I was responding to.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Kennedy 0]

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It's not, but I am not the one saying he would have "saved the day", either. He very well could have.

Or not. THAT'S my point. Just saying that he would have because he was there is a fallacy. And that was the original post I was responding to.

I agree no one can say what would have happened. But why should a person be denied the ability to protect himself? I just want one of the people who said he would have/could have shot someone to admit that the disarmed CCW holder could have made a different for the other victims.

People should take notice that lunatic's multiple victims shootings always happen in places where guns are not allowed. There is a reason I refer to these places as victim disarmament zones. The only people disarmed are the potential victims. Pyschos don't really care about that whole "no guns allowed" sign anymore than they care about the "no murders allowed" law.

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[TypicalFish 0]

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I agree no one can say what would have happened. But why should a person be denied the ability to protect himself?

He shouldn't.

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I just want one of the people who said he would have/could have shot someone to admit that the disarmed CCW holder could have made a different for the other victims.

He very well could have, I definitely agree. I was just saying that he also very well could not have, and could have put the patrons and himself at even MORE risk.

On a side note, can you imagine what would have happened if the cops had shown up mid-incident and mistaken HIM for the shooter? Yikes. No commentary intended from that remark, the possibility just came to mind.

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People should take notice that lunatic's multiple victims shootings always happen in places where guns are not allowed.

Interesting. Do you have any statistics to back this up? I am not doubting you, I would just like to see them for information; i.e., percentages and such. Of course, I guess it would make sense, why would you go someplace where the people might be armed if you were going to commit a crime?

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Pyschos don't really care about that whole "no guns allowed" sign anymore than they care about the "no murders allowed" law.

Again, I agree with you here. It is one of my biggest disagreements with the death penalty being used as "deterrence".

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[happythoughts 0]

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However, the Ohio Concealed Carry law prohibits carry into any area or function that serves alcohol.

Seems like a good idea.

I have friends who like to bring out their guns and discuss them. I think that is great unless any alchohol has been consumed. In that case, I will leave.

Adding firearms to a scene where alchohol is served is a poor idea. In most bars that I have been in, about 10% of the patrons show poor judgement and are not people that I would want to see armed.

[Kennedy 0]

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However, the Ohio Concealed Carry law prohibits carry into any area or function that serves alcohol.

Seems like a good idea.

Adding firearms to a scene where alchohol is served is a poor idea. In most bars that I have been in, about 10% of the patrons show poor judgement and are not people that I would want to see armed.

Why stop people from carrying if they are not going to drink? I've gone to concerts and not consumed alcohol. I've never gone into a bar to enjoy a show without drinking, but I would if I wanted to carry into the bar.

Wouldn't it be simpler to prohibt carrying while drunk? Afterall, you don't have to go to a bar to be drunk.

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