Better brush up on your spotting skills

[akarunway 1]

Bush Prepares for Possible GPS Shutdown

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo.


The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said.


``This is not something you would do lightly,'' said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. ``It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do.''


President Clinton abandoned the practice in May 2000 of deliberately degrading the accuracy of civilian navigation signals, a technique known as ``selective availability.''


The White House said it will not reinstate that practice, but said the president could decide to disable parts of the network for national security purposes.


The directives to the Defense Department and the Homeland Security Department were part of a space policy that Bush signed this month. It designates the GPS network as a critical infrastructure for the U.S. government. Part of the new policy is classified; other parts were disclosed Wednesday.


The White House said the policies were aimed at improving the stability and performance of the U.S. navigation system, which Bush pledged will continue to be made available for free.


The U.S. network is comprised of more than two dozen satellites that act as beacons, sending location-specific radio signals that are recognized by devices popular with motorists, hikers, pilots and sailors.


Bush also said the government will make the network signals more resistant to deliberate or inadvertent jamming.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[pajarito 0]

There's nothing new about that kind of plan. He didn't invent it. Bush is just talking about applying it to homeland security also.

[kallend 2,150]

No GPS spotting?

If a crisis reaches that level I expect all civilian flying will be stopped anyway (just like after 9/11).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

If an event catastrophic enough to cause the shutdown of GPS satellites occured, I think the inconvenience caused by the loss of our ability to use GPS to skydive would be the least of our concerns.

[akarunway 1]

Sarcasm folks. But if the gps goes down won't the military fighyers lose theirs or do they (I'm sure) have their own military gps sats?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

No GPS spotting?

If a crisis reaches that level I expect all civilian flying will be stopped anyway (just like after 9/11).

You're right but I have to brag. One week after 9-11, I and three others (including my Dad; MSG Ret. Bob Phillips) were allowed to skydive into the Army/UAB football game at Legion Field, Birmingham, AL. It was organized by Chuck Blue's (SkymonkeyOne) Dad, CSM Ret. Buddy Blue, and was the only flight allowed over a sporting event in the USA at that time. It was very closely watched and there were helicopters flying around watching our every move. We only had one shot at it and it was a very small window. The jump was great! We entered the stadium with flags at pre-game right after the National Anthem and the entire crowd was screaming "USA!"..."USA!"..."USA!" It gave me chill bumps and was very humbling and motivating given that everyone was in the mindset of retaliation against the ones who attacked NY. I was deployed shortly thereafter. I wish we could retrieve the sense of urgency and patriotism that we had back then. I can still visualize the people jumping from the windows of the Trade Centers to avoid being burned to death. Anyway, it wasn’t the biggest demo that I’ve ever done but will be one that I’ll never forget. By the way, we spotted without GPS.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Sarcasm folks. But if the gps goes down won't the military fighyers lose theirs or do they (I'm sure) have their own military gps sats?

There are two separate systems on the GPS sats. Civilians only have access to one of them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Quote

Sarcasm folks. But if the gps goes down won't the military fighyers lose theirs or do they (I'm sure) have their own military gps sats?

There are two separate systems on the GPS sats. Civilians only have access to one of them.

and the fewer satellites you can 'touch' the worse your accuracy is.... and the are other means as well to insure the military and other authorized users have access to the full network...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 10]

Quote

You're right but I have to brag. One week after 9-11

One week?

Thats nothing, we were jumping within DAYS at Laurenburg, NC when only military flights were allowed in the air...Military *training*.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dorbie 0]

I don't think this is correct. The GPS uses the same single satellite constellation but can encrypt the transmitions and selectively degrade accuracy. I thing Reagan actually unlocked the full accuracy the military has for civilian use after the Ruskies shot down a wandering airliner.

AFAIK DoD can return to degraded accuracy or full encryption and denial of service without denying themselves the use of their system, it was an integral part of the design of the system. I think they can do this selectively over specific theatres should they feel the need.

P.S. I'm not familiar with the technical details but I suspect the accuracy is controlled by the selective encryption of clock precision, not by the denial of satellites or the use of separate systems.

[pajarito 0]

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Quote

You're right but I have to brag. One week after 9-11

One week?

Thats nothing, we were jumping within DAYS at Laurenburg, NC when only military flights were allowed in the air...Military *training*.

After they shut down civilian air traffic? We jumped from a Cessna 182. I may have been wrong. It was either one or two weeks after. It was definitely after they had shut everything down.

Added: The only reason it was allowed at all was because of our security clearances, current or former service, and CSM Buddy Blue's reputation.

Oh, and it was into a bowl stadium with thousands of people at a sporting event. Not just at a DZ.

[Ron 10]

Quote

After they shut down civilian air traffic?

Military Aricraft C-31, UV18a, Issued Military equipment, All Military Jumpers on orders to be there and be jumping. The aircraft were painted Black and Gold.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Quote

After they shut down civilian air traffic?

Military Aricraft C-31, UV18a, Issued Military equipment, All Military Jumpers on orders to be there and be jumping. The aircraft were painted Black and Gold.

Ok, even though we were all military with clearance, it was the only civilian one.

By the way, my aircraft was painted ORANGE & BLUE!!!

My Plane (well...Buddy's plane) )

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

I don't think this is correct. The GPS uses the same single satellite constellation but can encrypt the transmitions and selectively degrade accuracy. I thing Reagan actually unlocked the full accuracy the military has for civilian use after the Ruskies shot down a wandering airliner.

AFAIK DoD can return to degraded accuracy or full encryption and denial of service without denying themselves the use of their system, it was an integral part of the design of the system. I think they can do this selectively over specific theatres should they feel the need.

P.S. I'm not familiar with the technical details but I suspect the accuracy is controlled by the selective encryption of clock precision, not by the denial of satellites or the use of separate systems.

There are two separate systems on the satellites. One is encrypted and is only available to the military. They operate on different frequencies and encode position information differently.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[slug 1]

After the battle of fullajua it was reported that the marines found a GPS unit that the bad guy's left behind.

It showed their route from Syria across Iraq. The brand of the GPS unit wasn't reported

R.I.P.

[Ron 10]

Quote

By the way, my aircraft was painted ORANGE & BLUE!!!

Jumped it in about 5/96

I had just finished OSUT and was in Airborne school when I made a run out to Blues DZ. I showed up without any logbook, no USPA membership, and no gear.

Buddy threw me a rig without an AAD or RSL, double zippered JS and an alti and told me to not get killed.

I have even a better story about going to SDA that I'll tell you if I ever meet you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

> After the battle of fullajua it was reported that the marines found a GPS
> unit that the bad guy's left behind.
>It showed their route from Syria across Iraq. The brand of the GPS unit
> wasn't reported.

I'm not worried about lost terrorists - I'm worried about a C-182 with 2000 pounds of C-4 and high level nuclear waste onboard happily cruising from Isla de la Juventud to Miami, and arriving within 3 meters of its target. Most modern GPSes have a safety provision that will disengage them if they are operated at more than 1000 mph (so they're hard to use for missiles) but this provision obviously won't protect against light aircraft.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Buddy threw me a rig without an AAD or RSL, double zippered JS and an alti and told me to not get killed.

Yup. That sounds about right. Better bring your own stuff next time cuz Buddy's a cheap bastard. I mean that in the best way possible.

[slug 1]

Quote

> After the battle of fullajua it was reported that the marines found a GPS
> unit that the bad guy's left behind.
>It showed their route from Syria across Iraq. The brand of the GPS unit
> wasn't reported.

I'm not worried about lost terrorists - I'm worried about a C-182 with 2000 pounds of C-4 and high level nuclear waste onboard happily cruising from Isla de la Juventud to Miami, and arriving within 3 meters of its target. Most modern GPSes have a safety provision that will disengage them if they are operated at more than 1000 mph (so they're hard to use for missiles) but this provision obviously won't protect against light aircraft.

Affirmative

If the bad guy's can use them in the sand pile they can use them here. Smart little bastards

R.I.P.

[Zenister 0]

actually there are several methods.. and dedicated military networks as well, but we certainly dont need to get into details here....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

> After the battle of fullajua it was reported that the marines found a GPS
> unit that the bad guy's left behind.
>It showed their route from Syria across Iraq. The brand of the GPS unit
> wasn't reported.

I'm not worried about lost terrorists - I'm worried about a C-182 with 2000 pounds of C-4 and high level nuclear waste onboard happily cruising from Isla de la Juventud to Miami, and arriving within 3 meters of its target. Most modern GPSes have a safety provision that will disengage them if they are operated at more than 1000 mph (so they're hard to use for missiles) but this provision obviously won't protect against light aircraft.

Missile Defense Shield? Maybe it can hit a C182. But then again, remember Mathias Rust

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

>If the bad guy's can use them in the sand pile they can use them here.

When I was in Thailand I saw a guy in a market stall selling cheap radios, pirated DVD's and GPSes. Anyone in the world can now obtain and operate a GPS.

The problem is that nothing we can do will stop a smart terrorist. Good air patrols? He'll use a fast boat with a GPS autopilot. Shut down the GPS system due to a threat? He'll just use one of these:

http://www.guards.hu/satcom/download/gt3320.pdf

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

There's nothing new about that kind of plan. He didn't invent it. Bush is just talking about applying it to homeland security also.

Yep. I remember scouting locations around the launch of the invasion of Iraq, and all our (civilian) GPS were totally off by a few degrees!

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[slug 1]

Quote

Quote

> After the battle of fullajua it was reported that the marines found a GPS
> unit that the bad guy's left behind.
>It showed their route from Syria across Iraq. The brand of the GPS unit
> wasn't reported.

I'm not worried about lost terrorists - I'm worried about a C-182 with 2000 pounds of C-4 and high level nuclear waste onboard happily cruising from Isla de la Juventud to Miami, and arriving within 3 meters of its target. Most modern GPSes have a safety provision that will disengage them if they are operated at more than 1000 mph (so they're hard to use for missiles) but this provision obviously won't protect against light aircraft.

Missile Defense Shield? Maybe it can hit a C182. But then again, remember Mathias Rust

Some of the drug smugglers get thru on a routine basis before they finally get caught. Lucky for us they don't want destroy their customer base for chump change.

R.I.P.