pajarito 0 #101 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe US is the most generous country on the planet. Sorry - gotta call you on that. Sure, the japs alone beat you on a pure $ ammount (making the US 2nd)... but when seen on a per capita basis or on a $/GDP basis the US is waaaaay down the list. I guess it's all in how you look at it. We built the Japanese back up so they could become the economic power that they are today. They owe much of their prosperity to the generosity of the US. As do several other European countries. Oh, how soon we forget. Many European countries would be saying "guten Morgen" right now if it weren't for the big bad ole USA. And the per capita comment has such a liberal "give me more of a free handout b/c you've got more money than everybody else" feel to it. Edited to add: Oh...better include the UK in with those potential German speaking countries if the US hadn't have done anything while I'm at it since they might not be considered Europe proper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #102 December 15, 2004 Since this thread appears to have degenerated into a pissing contest between children about who's better EU or US (although I'm not at all sure about the point in that)... how would the fact that Europe gives out around $25 billion in aid by comparison to the $6.9 billion provided by the US factor into your "most generous" nation comment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #103 December 15, 2004 QuoteOh...better include the UK in with those potential German speaking countries if the US hadn't have done anything while I'm at it since they might not be considered Europe proper. hehe - learn more about the second world war and you might realise why that comment makes me laugh. Operation Sea Lion was trash canned in August of 1940 - well over a year before the US got involved. Hitler had never had much hope of invading the UK once Goering had failed to win air superiority... especially not with what we had lurking in Scarpa Flow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #104 December 15, 2004 QuoteMany European countries would be saying "guten Morgen" right now if it weren't for the big bad ole USA. The Russians took heavier losses and caused more damage to the German war cause then the US and the Allies did. Hitler gave up on trying to take England well before the majority of the US troops were even out of basic training. WW2 is a whole lot more complicated then "The US came in and saved all of Europe". Engaging Russia was by far the single stupidest thing that Hitler did.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #105 December 15, 2004 QuoteSince this thread appears to have degenerated into a pissing contest between children about who's better EU or US (although I'm not at all sure about the point in that)... how would the fact that Europe gives out around $25 billion in aid by comparison to the $6.9 billion provided by the US factor into your "most generous" nation comment? Hmmm.... United States (solo) contributions compared to the combined efforts of every country included in the European Union (25 member countries as of now with 4 more applied and 1 pending application). That sounds fair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #106 December 15, 2004 so lets see: this thread started with a dimwit article of a german whack-job journo to be read as "the european stand on blablahblah" just after christel turned up and stated this article by said writer was complete bs and that he is in no way entitled to speak for europe as a whole this turned into the usual s.c.-kind of arguement including the (in)famous top-posters truly adding gems to this masterpiece («---- if anybody feels insulted/personally attacked by this - **** you) @pajarito: QuoteMany European countries would be saying "guten Morgen" right now if it weren't for the big bad ole USA as i am definitely shure you read the whole thread - there's more sides to this story and the statement simply isn't true btw & if i haven't already mentioned this before: I AM SORRY AND MANY THANKS FOR HELPING US DIMWIT EURO'S OUT MORE THAN 60 YEARS AGO man this all get's so tiring edit to add: why is it so hard to understand that most of european folks are soooo tired of fighting in war's? i know it's a fucked up world out there, and most of the "solutions" – no matter if made up by europe, the states, the U.N or whoever - don't seem to work on the big scheme. if everything were that bloody simple as we think it was, well i guess the world would be a better place....The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #107 December 15, 2004 Ok...ok... But do also reject the idea that the US is the most generous country (singular) on the planet as I stated (now)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #108 December 15, 2004 Well, good morning. Looks like my little thread took off - into a very different direction I had intended it to go. Sigh. I guess that's just what happens. I wish, just once, that people could discuss a viewpoint objectively without getting all pissy and self-righteous. Hell, even I got pissy and self-righteous; nice one, Bec. Does it seem to anyone else, that no matter the original post, the exact same "arguements" (opinions) keep spinning out: The US sucks, Everyone else sucks, Bush sucks, Bush rules, You'd all be speaking German... blah blah. Have fun y'all. One or two more specific replies from me, and I'm out. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #109 December 15, 2004 No, I don't contend it's fair... just that it was in keeping with the rest of the thread. As I said I think this thread is far more a testament to herd stupidity than anything else. It's degenerated (as many other threads do) into a childish pissing contest between the US, the EU, the rest of the world, Muslims and any other number of countries or entities people saw fit to throw into the melting pot. It really is a shame the SC is continually witness to such silly arguments. I call shenanigans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #110 December 15, 2004 Quotebtw & if i haven't already mentioned this before: I AM SORRY AND MANY THANKS FOR HELPING US DIMWIT EURO'S OUT MORE THAN 60 YEARS AGO 60 years is not that long ago but, speaking for my Grandfather who bled and almost died in it's defense, you're welcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #111 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteJust like calling patriots nazis will. I called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Please read my posts before you reply to them. Well, Chris, I did. Rather carefully, too. Let's review, shall we? QuoteThe Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. QuoteWe are the nationalists. Have you not seen the "Proud to be American, "United We Stand," "These colors never run," etc. bumper stickers. Patriotism is Nationalism. Two words, one meaning. So, drawing on an old logic lesson: Nazis = Nationalists, and Patriots = Nationalists, THEREFORE Patriots = Nazis Did you read your posts? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #112 December 15, 2004 QuoteI called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Well, the dictionary calls a patriot one who loves and defends his or her own country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #113 December 15, 2004 Quoteok - just to chime in the author of the article is a complete whacko! the publisher of the newspaper is a rightwing fuckhead. My apologies for not checking his references. I just thought it was an interesting viewpoint to discuss. Quoteor an other example: would you argue over the statement that lets say howard stern represents the opinion of all u.s, citizens? – my guess is: if i posted this i'd get beat up verbally in seconds If he made a statement with any basis in reality concerning the state of affairs here or abroad, chances are, he would be representing a portion of the country's opinions. You can't say anyone represents the opinion of an entire nation, not really. That's why Christel's dismissal of the article as bs and non-German confused me. Is the whole nation really that unified in its viewpoint right now? (I'm asking seriously - last time I was there was '97) Quoteyes - "we", the europeans - have problems with radical muslims (so does the rest of the world rather apparently) . politics in most (european) countries has been week on these nutcases, letting them do their stuff mostly unwatched. after the murders in the netherlands there's a new process of thoight on this. as far as i understand the issue, there will be no more tolerance on any kind of extremism. my 2 (euro)cents: everybody is welcome to live in my country as long as they contribute to the community. i am strongly opposed to anybody seeking shelter and then working against the community/country/nation that gave it. AFAIK that is the line of thought starting to spread on a broad scale over here. This is exactly the sort of response I was looking for - thanks! Do you think security and vigilance has increased across the board since the murders? Do you think that neutrality on the part of non-involved EU countries has made you safer, or more vulnerable (perhaps viewed as weak by extremists?) Quoteone more thing: this whole europe vs u.s. start to SUCK MAJOR! AGREED! We're all in this together, whether you're involved or not. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #114 December 15, 2004 QuoteAre you sure about that? Our freedom allows many here to express themselves in ways that their strict religious views do not tolerate. According to many of them, our secular nation is the great satan. I am positive. There is many other couuntries who has a constitution similar to yours and therefore allows for a similar freedom of speech and are not hated that much if at all by the muslim world. No one has committed a terrorist attack against france for forbidding religious simbols in public schools. And that directly affects a lot of muslims. Quote I was part of the effort to liberate the Muslims in the Balkans. We support many Muslim nations. The US is the most generous country on the planet. I think the hatred goes back way further and is much deeper seeded than as a result of our foreign policies or our support of Israel. This is nothing new. This isn't all as a result of Bush. I never said it was Bush´s fault. It started way before, and he did continue with those policies. Let´s see, The U.S sold WMD to Irak so they could be used against Iran (another muslim country) The U.S gives Apache helicopters to Israel so they can use them against muslims in palestina.ç And you wonder why they are upset? The U.S bomb Afghanistan, a muslim country (I am not too upset about this though, no sympathy for the taliban). The U.S bombs Irak and kill thousands of innocent civilians... Do you really wonder why they hate you so much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #115 December 15, 2004 QuoteNo one has committed a terrorist attack against france for forbidding religious simbols in public schools. And that directly affects a lot of muslims. That's because France and the terrorists are business partners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #116 December 15, 2004 ***btw & if i haven't already mentioned this before: I AM SORRY AND MANY THANKS FOR HELPING US DIMWIT EURO'S OUT MORE THAN 60 YEARS AGO If I hadnt mentioned this before,thanks Deutschland for giving Grandpa Watkins so many opportunities for Bombardier practice over France and Germany so many years ago....... and why does all this get tiring?It's fun for most of us,most of the time,just take it with a big grain of salt Dont lose your sense of humour or perspective,it can get rancorous here at times but most here are good people though a few have a smart ass streak a mile wide I'll even let you in on a litttle secret........ most of us like Euros and we love the Brits Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sfc 1 #117 December 15, 2004 Just incase all this anti-euro BS puts anyone off visiting the US... As a euro-brit who has been living in the USA for a few years I feel I should let any european that might be put off visiting the USA know that the anti-euro anti-german and anyti-french views expressed here are the views of a minority of (right-wing and puffed up with their own self-righteousness) americans, based on my experience with real folks here you will be welcomed with open arms and not have the "you should all be grateful for us saving the world" attitude pushed in your face. However I do live in california where the white man is less than 50% of the population and not such an arrogant arsehole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #118 December 15, 2004 Quote....Europe gives out around $25 billion in aid by comparison to the $6.9 billion provided by the US... Grouping a country into its continent is what got Cristel and the others going in the first place. Do you really want to relive that part of this thread? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #119 December 15, 2004 Careful... greenie gonna spank you... The sentiment is true, however. Here in Houston, you'd find a decent collection of fellow countrymen, no matter where you come from. I meet European ex-pats all the time, and I try really hard to be (for a lack of a better word) ambassadorial - especially when it comes to making them aware that there are Americans who appreciate their respective country's culture, can speak at least a few words (French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch) or fluently (German), and aren't "Ugly" and uneducated like the awful American stereotype. I miss Europe, especially Germany. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #120 December 15, 2004 QuoteHmmm.... United States (solo) contributions compared to the combined efforts of every country included in the European Union (25 member countries as of now with 4 more applied and 1 pending application). That sounds fair. Think of it as the combined contributions of the United States pale in comparison to the combined contributions of the European states. It is a very fair comparison.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #121 December 15, 2004 See above - I only made the comment as the whole thread seemed to have deteriorated into a EU (as a whole) vs. the US thread. If people were insisting on comparing the two I simply threw in the relevant figures to the "whining pot". I agree though, personally I don't think it's that relevant a comparison.... just pandering to the ridicules route this thread has taken. At the end of the day the only concrete point I wished to contribute to the thread was that the US isn't the "most generous country". I think that point is easily made when you look at the actual figures. It's the Japs first on $ alone... the other two ways of measuring it the US ends up 20th and 21st... out of a list of I think 24 aid giving countries. Kinda puts things in perspective... liberal hand-out whining or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #122 December 15, 2004 QuoteThink of it as the combined contributions of the United States pale in comparison to the combined contributions of the European states. It is a very fair comparison. That's cool. One state in the US is equivalent to an entire country in Europe. Excellent! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #123 December 15, 2004 In that case, I'm on your side - pander away. It's gone nutty anyway. Rebecca - nice start, see what happens? How you doing lately? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #124 December 15, 2004 Post: In Reply To Quote Just like calling patriots nazis will. I called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Please read my posts before you reply to them. Well, Chris, I did. Rather carefully, too. Let's review, shall we? Quote The Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. Quote We are the nationalists. Have you not seen the "Proud to be American, "United We Stand," "These colors never run," etc. bumper stickers. Patriotism is Nationalism. Two words, one meaning. So, drawing on an old logic lesson: Nazis = Nationalists, and Patriots = Nationalists, THEREFORE Patriots = Nazis By your logic: My car is black. Model Ts are black. My car is a model T. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. That is not a logical conclusion. I called all Nazis nationalists; I DID NOT call all Nationalists Nazis. There is a HUGE difference, so please stop putting words into my mouth.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #125 December 15, 2004 ***I miss Europe, especially Germany. Yeah R,I miss Wales and Ireland and more importantly I miss the Guinness over thereBut be forewarned, I will be making a pest of myself around Cork in JuneMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Rebecca 0 #111 December 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteJust like calling patriots nazis will. I called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Please read my posts before you reply to them. Well, Chris, I did. Rather carefully, too. Let's review, shall we? QuoteThe Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. QuoteWe are the nationalists. Have you not seen the "Proud to be American, "United We Stand," "These colors never run," etc. bumper stickers. Patriotism is Nationalism. Two words, one meaning. So, drawing on an old logic lesson: Nazis = Nationalists, and Patriots = Nationalists, THEREFORE Patriots = Nazis Did you read your posts? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #112 December 15, 2004 QuoteI called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Well, the dictionary calls a patriot one who loves and defends his or her own country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #113 December 15, 2004 Quoteok - just to chime in the author of the article is a complete whacko! the publisher of the newspaper is a rightwing fuckhead. My apologies for not checking his references. I just thought it was an interesting viewpoint to discuss. Quoteor an other example: would you argue over the statement that lets say howard stern represents the opinion of all u.s, citizens? – my guess is: if i posted this i'd get beat up verbally in seconds If he made a statement with any basis in reality concerning the state of affairs here or abroad, chances are, he would be representing a portion of the country's opinions. You can't say anyone represents the opinion of an entire nation, not really. That's why Christel's dismissal of the article as bs and non-German confused me. Is the whole nation really that unified in its viewpoint right now? (I'm asking seriously - last time I was there was '97) Quoteyes - "we", the europeans - have problems with radical muslims (so does the rest of the world rather apparently) . politics in most (european) countries has been week on these nutcases, letting them do their stuff mostly unwatched. after the murders in the netherlands there's a new process of thoight on this. as far as i understand the issue, there will be no more tolerance on any kind of extremism. my 2 (euro)cents: everybody is welcome to live in my country as long as they contribute to the community. i am strongly opposed to anybody seeking shelter and then working against the community/country/nation that gave it. AFAIK that is the line of thought starting to spread on a broad scale over here. This is exactly the sort of response I was looking for - thanks! Do you think security and vigilance has increased across the board since the murders? Do you think that neutrality on the part of non-involved EU countries has made you safer, or more vulnerable (perhaps viewed as weak by extremists?) Quoteone more thing: this whole europe vs u.s. start to SUCK MAJOR! AGREED! We're all in this together, whether you're involved or not. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #114 December 15, 2004 QuoteAre you sure about that? Our freedom allows many here to express themselves in ways that their strict religious views do not tolerate. According to many of them, our secular nation is the great satan. I am positive. There is many other couuntries who has a constitution similar to yours and therefore allows for a similar freedom of speech and are not hated that much if at all by the muslim world. No one has committed a terrorist attack against france for forbidding religious simbols in public schools. And that directly affects a lot of muslims. Quote I was part of the effort to liberate the Muslims in the Balkans. We support many Muslim nations. The US is the most generous country on the planet. I think the hatred goes back way further and is much deeper seeded than as a result of our foreign policies or our support of Israel. This is nothing new. This isn't all as a result of Bush. I never said it was Bush´s fault. It started way before, and he did continue with those policies. Let´s see, The U.S sold WMD to Irak so they could be used against Iran (another muslim country) The U.S gives Apache helicopters to Israel so they can use them against muslims in palestina.ç And you wonder why they are upset? The U.S bomb Afghanistan, a muslim country (I am not too upset about this though, no sympathy for the taliban). The U.S bombs Irak and kill thousands of innocent civilians... Do you really wonder why they hate you so much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #115 December 15, 2004 QuoteNo one has committed a terrorist attack against france for forbidding religious simbols in public schools. And that directly affects a lot of muslims. That's because France and the terrorists are business partners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #116 December 15, 2004 ***btw & if i haven't already mentioned this before: I AM SORRY AND MANY THANKS FOR HELPING US DIMWIT EURO'S OUT MORE THAN 60 YEARS AGO If I hadnt mentioned this before,thanks Deutschland for giving Grandpa Watkins so many opportunities for Bombardier practice over France and Germany so many years ago....... and why does all this get tiring?It's fun for most of us,most of the time,just take it with a big grain of salt Dont lose your sense of humour or perspective,it can get rancorous here at times but most here are good people though a few have a smart ass streak a mile wide I'll even let you in on a litttle secret........ most of us like Euros and we love the Brits Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #117 December 15, 2004 Just incase all this anti-euro BS puts anyone off visiting the US... As a euro-brit who has been living in the USA for a few years I feel I should let any european that might be put off visiting the USA know that the anti-euro anti-german and anyti-french views expressed here are the views of a minority of (right-wing and puffed up with their own self-righteousness) americans, based on my experience with real folks here you will be welcomed with open arms and not have the "you should all be grateful for us saving the world" attitude pushed in your face. However I do live in california where the white man is less than 50% of the population and not such an arrogant arsehole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #118 December 15, 2004 Quote....Europe gives out around $25 billion in aid by comparison to the $6.9 billion provided by the US... Grouping a country into its continent is what got Cristel and the others going in the first place. Do you really want to relive that part of this thread? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #119 December 15, 2004 Careful... greenie gonna spank you... The sentiment is true, however. Here in Houston, you'd find a decent collection of fellow countrymen, no matter where you come from. I meet European ex-pats all the time, and I try really hard to be (for a lack of a better word) ambassadorial - especially when it comes to making them aware that there are Americans who appreciate their respective country's culture, can speak at least a few words (French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch) or fluently (German), and aren't "Ugly" and uneducated like the awful American stereotype. I miss Europe, especially Germany. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #120 December 15, 2004 QuoteHmmm.... United States (solo) contributions compared to the combined efforts of every country included in the European Union (25 member countries as of now with 4 more applied and 1 pending application). That sounds fair. Think of it as the combined contributions of the United States pale in comparison to the combined contributions of the European states. It is a very fair comparison.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #121 December 15, 2004 See above - I only made the comment as the whole thread seemed to have deteriorated into a EU (as a whole) vs. the US thread. If people were insisting on comparing the two I simply threw in the relevant figures to the "whining pot". I agree though, personally I don't think it's that relevant a comparison.... just pandering to the ridicules route this thread has taken. At the end of the day the only concrete point I wished to contribute to the thread was that the US isn't the "most generous country". I think that point is easily made when you look at the actual figures. It's the Japs first on $ alone... the other two ways of measuring it the US ends up 20th and 21st... out of a list of I think 24 aid giving countries. Kinda puts things in perspective... liberal hand-out whining or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #122 December 15, 2004 QuoteThink of it as the combined contributions of the United States pale in comparison to the combined contributions of the European states. It is a very fair comparison. That's cool. One state in the US is equivalent to an entire country in Europe. Excellent! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #123 December 15, 2004 In that case, I'm on your side - pander away. It's gone nutty anyway. Rebecca - nice start, see what happens? How you doing lately? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #124 December 15, 2004 Post: In Reply To Quote Just like calling patriots nazis will. I called patriots ethnocentrists, not Nazis. Please read my posts before you reply to them. Well, Chris, I did. Rather carefully, too. Let's review, shall we? Quote The Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. Quote We are the nationalists. Have you not seen the "Proud to be American, "United We Stand," "These colors never run," etc. bumper stickers. Patriotism is Nationalism. Two words, one meaning. So, drawing on an old logic lesson: Nazis = Nationalists, and Patriots = Nationalists, THEREFORE Patriots = Nazis By your logic: My car is black. Model Ts are black. My car is a model T. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. That is not a logical conclusion. I called all Nazis nationalists; I DID NOT call all Nationalists Nazis. There is a HUGE difference, so please stop putting words into my mouth.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #125 December 15, 2004 ***I miss Europe, especially Germany. Yeah R,I miss Wales and Ireland and more importantly I miss the Guinness over thereBut be forewarned, I will be making a pest of myself around Cork in JuneMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
