christelsabine 1 #26 December 14, 2004 QuoteExplain it to us stupid americans. ____________________________________________________ What? Explain to a stupid European dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 December 14, 2004 QuoteIts interesting that what you guys see as apathy, we tend to see as simply not wanting to interfere in the business of other nations. Then y'all should get the hell outta the UN. Isn't that what the UN is all about? QuoteThe first problem with the 'You would all be speaking German now if it wasn't for the USA' line is that it simply isn't true. I've never argued it is. "Those of you actually alive would all be speaking German" is a better description. QuoteThe USA helped prevent Hitler from taking over Europe. Eventually. After the really hard work had been done by others. Before the entry of US forces, those merchant marines the US was sending were full of Christmas cards and notes of encouragement. And while I understand that France softened the German forces, and Britain was perfectly well fed and secure before the Americans showed up, I guess D-day was a pretty soft operation. Americans didn't do any of the "really hard work." Goodness, Churchill is rolling in his grave right now. QuoteSo it's a bit like me saying that you Americans would all be speaking French if we Brits hadn't won the battle of Waterloo No. The French helped us in 1812-1814 with flint that allowed us to win that war. So now we speak American, having ridded ourselves of superfluous "u's" that you guys love. By the way, thank the Prussians for doing the "really hard work" at Waterloo. The Brits just mopped up Napoleon afterwards. Otherwise, 1066 would have been repeated. QuoteThe third problem with it is that almost without exception the Americans spouting it weren't even born at the time of the second world war either, they are merely stealing credit for something they think their ancestors did. Which in fact they didn't. I wasn't born then. But I study world history. Nothing but outright hubris on your part would suggest that American involvement was unnecessary in the Big One. I'd suggest you talk to someone hunkered down during the blitz to see how well that war was going for you before the Americans showed up. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #28 December 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy are you being so defensive? ___________________________________________________ Defensive? Me? I replied to you. Whoever created that little story does not know anything about Europe or Germany. That's for sure. You created a nice little thread, that's for sure, too QuoteAnd that's exactly, what the US dislike. Live with it. You all were coming from somewhere beyond the Great Pond. I was talking about this. It sounded like you were getting defensive. That's all. I'm still confused - this was written by a German. And yes, lovely little banter we have going here, nicht wahr? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #29 December 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy are you being so defensive? ___________________________________________________ Defensive? Me? I replied to you. Whoever created that little story does not know anything about Europe or Germany. That's for sure. You created a nice little thread, that's for sure, too Explain how the person that wrote the commentary doesn't know anything about Europe or Germany. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #30 December 14, 2004 Sorry, it's just that you bluntly said that you think it's untrue and a fairy tale, I just wanted you to be specific. Here is the link: http://www.welt.de/data/2004/11/20/363020.html. Mathias Döpfner wrote the article, and as a chief exec of Axel Springer, I would hope he knows what he's talking about. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #31 December 14, 2004 "A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #32 December 14, 2004 QuoteAmericans didn't do any of the "really hard work." Nope, the Russians did. Hitler had basically given up on the western front and England and was putting his focus on Russia. The losses at Stalingrad alone I think were more then the US losses in France and most of Germany. Russia would have been able to walk across Germany and then all of Europe if they wanted to by the time WW2 ended. By the time the American's showed up in Europe the Western front was completely stalled, the Battle for Brittian was over with the Brits up and the Eastern front was destroying Hitler and his forces faster then he could ship them there.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #33 December 14, 2004 Quote"A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Good plan. Bye-ee!! you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #34 December 14, 2004 Wow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #35 December 14, 2004 'K, so have we covered the history, then? Americans were there, Europeans were there, lots of people on both sides died, the Allies "won". Regardless of who ended it, it began with one charismatic lunatic and a dream of domination, and got so far as to begin systematically wiping out a people. Shouldn't the warning signs of impending disaster be clearer to see by now? Why isn't Germany the first country stepping up to make sure these things don't happen anywhere ever? (Not attacking, just wondering why) you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #36 December 14, 2004 Quotebut many Brits are against us and the war As I am sure there are americans against the war also. And I dont think the same comparison can be made for Germany and the current assault on 'Terror' which to some extent doing more harm than good. I think cowardice cannot be a trait of a nation.... only a perception through the actions of its leaders.... I think the invasion of Iraq is misguided - and not through a reluctance to do the right thing Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #37 December 14, 2004 QuoteWow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #38 December 14, 2004 Of course there are Americans against the war! Do you live here? And yes, the actions of the leader reflects directly on the people, which is why Americans are often painted with the same brush, regardless of their feelings about the war. The leaders represent their people, for better or worse. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #39 December 14, 2004 No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. _______________________________________________________ It's Döpfner's comment on Broder's article. And Broder seems not to be a German one. I will check this. No matter if this is a comment on someones article or not: That's not German attiitude. That's BS at it's finest. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #40 December 14, 2004 QuoteShouldn't the warning signs of impending disaster be clearer to see by now? Why isn't Germany the first country stepping up to make sure these things don't happen anywhere ever? So far as I can tell, from talking to american students and foreign skydivers, there are two kinds of people in the world right now. Those that feel Osama bin Laden and crew are the greatest threat to the world, and those that feel Bush, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Blair, Sharon et al are the greatest threat to the world. I have no doubt that all of the above believe they are doing a great service to mankind, as did Hitler. Nobody does anything that they don't believe is the right thing to do, no matter what their reasons. Ethnocentricity, even under the guise of patriotism, is bad. The Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. If an "us against them" mentality is developed or nurtured, everyone loses.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #41 December 14, 2004 Quote No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. _______________________________________________________ It's Döpfner's comment on Broder's article. And Broder seems not to be a German one. I will check this. No matter if this is a comment on someones article or not: That's not German attiitude. That's BS at it's finest. Yes, I know that it's commentary, but it's in support of Broder's POV. Why do you stereotype your countrymen as having a certain attitude? Does no one there disagree any more? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #29 December 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy are you being so defensive? ___________________________________________________ Defensive? Me? I replied to you. Whoever created that little story does not know anything about Europe or Germany. That's for sure. You created a nice little thread, that's for sure, too Explain how the person that wrote the commentary doesn't know anything about Europe or Germany. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #30 December 14, 2004 Sorry, it's just that you bluntly said that you think it's untrue and a fairy tale, I just wanted you to be specific. Here is the link: http://www.welt.de/data/2004/11/20/363020.html. Mathias Döpfner wrote the article, and as a chief exec of Axel Springer, I would hope he knows what he's talking about. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #31 December 14, 2004 "A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #32 December 14, 2004 QuoteAmericans didn't do any of the "really hard work." Nope, the Russians did. Hitler had basically given up on the western front and England and was putting his focus on Russia. The losses at Stalingrad alone I think were more then the US losses in France and most of Germany. Russia would have been able to walk across Germany and then all of Europe if they wanted to by the time WW2 ended. By the time the American's showed up in Europe the Western front was completely stalled, the Battle for Brittian was over with the Brits up and the Eastern front was destroying Hitler and his forces faster then he could ship them there.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #33 December 14, 2004 Quote"A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Good plan. Bye-ee!! you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #34 December 14, 2004 Wow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #35 December 14, 2004 'K, so have we covered the history, then? Americans were there, Europeans were there, lots of people on both sides died, the Allies "won". Regardless of who ended it, it began with one charismatic lunatic and a dream of domination, and got so far as to begin systematically wiping out a people. Shouldn't the warning signs of impending disaster be clearer to see by now? Why isn't Germany the first country stepping up to make sure these things don't happen anywhere ever? (Not attacking, just wondering why) you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #36 December 14, 2004 Quotebut many Brits are against us and the war As I am sure there are americans against the war also. And I dont think the same comparison can be made for Germany and the current assault on 'Terror' which to some extent doing more harm than good. I think cowardice cannot be a trait of a nation.... only a perception through the actions of its leaders.... I think the invasion of Iraq is misguided - and not through a reluctance to do the right thing Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #37 December 14, 2004 QuoteWow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rebecca 0 #38 December 14, 2004 Of course there are Americans against the war! Do you live here? And yes, the actions of the leader reflects directly on the people, which is why Americans are often painted with the same brush, regardless of their feelings about the war. The leaders represent their people, for better or worse. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #39 December 14, 2004 No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. _______________________________________________________ It's Döpfner's comment on Broder's article. And Broder seems not to be a German one. I will check this. No matter if this is a comment on someones article or not: That's not German attiitude. That's BS at it's finest. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #30 December 14, 2004 Sorry, it's just that you bluntly said that you think it's untrue and a fairy tale, I just wanted you to be specific. Here is the link: http://www.welt.de/data/2004/11/20/363020.html. Mathias Döpfner wrote the article, and as a chief exec of Axel Springer, I would hope he knows what he's talking about. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #31 December 14, 2004 "A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #32 December 14, 2004 QuoteAmericans didn't do any of the "really hard work." Nope, the Russians did. Hitler had basically given up on the western front and England and was putting his focus on Russia. The losses at Stalingrad alone I think were more then the US losses in France and most of Germany. Russia would have been able to walk across Germany and then all of Europe if they wanted to by the time WW2 ended. By the time the American's showed up in Europe the Western front was completely stalled, the Battle for Brittian was over with the Brits up and the Eastern front was destroying Hitler and his forces faster then he could ship them there.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #33 December 14, 2004 Quote"A dyed in the wool republican" Sounds like another political debate I'm not getting on this merry go round I'm out of hereR.I.P. Good plan. Bye-ee!! you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #34 December 14, 2004 Wow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #35 December 14, 2004 'K, so have we covered the history, then? Americans were there, Europeans were there, lots of people on both sides died, the Allies "won". Regardless of who ended it, it began with one charismatic lunatic and a dream of domination, and got so far as to begin systematically wiping out a people. Shouldn't the warning signs of impending disaster be clearer to see by now? Why isn't Germany the first country stepping up to make sure these things don't happen anywhere ever? (Not attacking, just wondering why) you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #36 December 14, 2004 Quotebut many Brits are against us and the war As I am sure there are americans against the war also. And I dont think the same comparison can be made for Germany and the current assault on 'Terror' which to some extent doing more harm than good. I think cowardice cannot be a trait of a nation.... only a perception through the actions of its leaders.... I think the invasion of Iraq is misguided - and not through a reluctance to do the right thing Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #37 December 14, 2004 QuoteWow. I a m surprised. Even it is only a comment of M. Döpfner on an article of Henryk M. Broder, I really like to find out who Broder is. Sounds too strange. Thx for the link. No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #38 December 14, 2004 Of course there are Americans against the war! Do you live here? And yes, the actions of the leader reflects directly on the people, which is why Americans are often painted with the same brush, regardless of their feelings about the war. The leaders represent their people, for better or worse. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #39 December 14, 2004 No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. _______________________________________________________ It's Döpfner's comment on Broder's article. And Broder seems not to be a German one. I will check this. No matter if this is a comment on someones article or not: That's not German attiitude. That's BS at it's finest. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #40 December 14, 2004 QuoteShouldn't the warning signs of impending disaster be clearer to see by now? Why isn't Germany the first country stepping up to make sure these things don't happen anywhere ever? So far as I can tell, from talking to american students and foreign skydivers, there are two kinds of people in the world right now. Those that feel Osama bin Laden and crew are the greatest threat to the world, and those that feel Bush, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Blair, Sharon et al are the greatest threat to the world. I have no doubt that all of the above believe they are doing a great service to mankind, as did Hitler. Nobody does anything that they don't believe is the right thing to do, no matter what their reasons. Ethnocentricity, even under the guise of patriotism, is bad. The Nazi's weren't bad because they were socialists; they were bad because they were nationalists, and felt that anyone who wasn't one of them was somehow inferior. If an "us against them" mentality is developed or nurtured, everyone loses.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #41 December 14, 2004 Quote No problem, but it's not just a comment on what Herr Broder said, that's Herr Döpfner's opinion. _______________________________________________________ It's Döpfner's comment on Broder's article. And Broder seems not to be a German one. I will check this. No matter if this is a comment on someones article or not: That's not German attiitude. That's BS at it's finest. Yes, I know that it's commentary, but it's in support of Broder's POV. Why do you stereotype your countrymen as having a certain attitude? Does no one there disagree any more? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #42 December 14, 2004 Even if it's 'Us against the nationalists'? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #43 December 14, 2004 If any of you guys had bothered to do a search you would of found that the author is an asshole an has been so for many years he is the equivalent to a freelance reporter for the National Enquirer In answer to one poster Germany is part of Europe I don't see why every time a German post comes along you have to bring up the nazis. It was finished with over half a century ago. Yes the Americans did help the world to stay free, I would like to remind the Americans that without the (British) Rolls-Royce Merlin engine you would have had a lot more causalities in the pacific war. and without American arms the allies (before US intervention) would of had more causalities An to put the record straight America benefited outrageously at the end of hostilities an in the years following through the wholesale export of European scientists So the score is America 1 Europe 1 Lets call it a draw. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #44 December 14, 2004 Looks like there are as many Europe-haters over there as there are over here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #45 December 14, 2004 Looks like you like it Or do have mod's to be neutral? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #46 December 14, 2004 I did bother to search. Are you referring to Broder or Doepfner? I think you're referring to Broder, who is not the author. That's not the point. The sentiment in the article is the point. Is Europe, including Germany, so hell-bent on non-involvement at all cost, that it really will be at all cost? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #47 December 14, 2004 QuoteLooks like there are as many Europe-haters over there as there are over here! Who hates Europe? I love it! Just not all of its policies... you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #48 December 14, 2004 QuoteIs Europe, including Germany, so hell-bent on non-involvement at all cost, that it really will be at all cost? Nope. But I think that after 2,000 years of wars in Europe (including some that affected the population and social structures of some countries to a level hard for us to comprehend today), some societies are getting tired of it. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #49 December 14, 2004 QuoteI did bother to search. Are you referring to Broder or Doepfner? I think you're referring to Broder, who is not the author. That's not the point. The sentiment in the article is the point. Is Europe, including Germany, so hell-bent on non-involvement at all cost, that it really will be at all cost? ______________________________________________________ Rebecca, if you ever followed worlds' history, you would find out as fllws: The America, as known today, never was involved into any war. Never attacked from outside. "You" really do not know what it means to be in a war with foreign countries. Europe (including Germany which, as true as it is, always was playing a big roll "Europe") always was in wars. Germany, in particular, has it's own past. Since more than half of a century, Germans should shut up b/c of their past. We are not allowed to participate on nuclear weapons's production. Germany always has to apologize. Period. Shit. I sound like my old teacher. I do not apologize for my grand-grand--------fathers mistakes. I am what I am: German. I love my country. And I've got enough reading about slimy Broder's or Döpfners. Selling their stories to both sides. If you disagree with our decisions not to enter into Iraq's war, OK. That's what I read behind your words. The US may fight against whatever they want: If we say no, we don't enter into a war. That's what "you" and the world always wanted us:. No more war. And that's exactly what I want: No more war. Not coming from my country, not with our soldiers. Never for anyone else. Except, we are attacked. That's a different story. Man, it's late. Night. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #50 December 14, 2004 Quote Even if it's 'Us against the nationalists'? Crazy We are the nationalists. Have you not seen the "Proud to be American, "United We Stand," "These colors never run," etc. bumper stickers. Patriotism is Nationalism. Two words, one meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
