Ron 10 #51 December 13, 2004 QuoteAmerican kills American - gets death penalty or life withour parole. American (Kevorkian) assists Americans commit suicide out of mercy. Gets 10 - 25 years. American kills Iraqi kid. Gets 3 years. How is that NOT the way it will be viewed? If an American kills an American who is trying to kill him...Nothing happens to him. Dr. K helped others die even after the Courts ordered him to stop. Until then he had helped many and was not going to serve any time.... American kills an Iraqi that most likley seconds ago was trying to kill him, or kills a guy that is going to die anyway...but it will be long and painful. Besides in this case justice was done. You may not agree with the sentance, but you don't seem to be looking at it from the frame of reference of the situations either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #52 December 13, 2004 QuoteCompletely agree. My point was that he did not kill him in action by mistake. Apparently he had time to make a decision and his decision was bad. So, you would watch him die in a fire? I don't know what I would do, but watching a guy get burned alive and suffer...Well its not something I think I could do."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #53 December 13, 2004 A little over a week ago, I had a conversation with someone about terminally-ill loved ones. The question came up, "Did they give you that choice?". That was followed by "Do you ever cry about it now?" It is surprising how many relatives are told "They aren't going to get better. They are constantly in pain. If we give that person any more ***, they will not wake up." Then the question, "What do you want to do?" After reading the story, it is about a badly burned young person with severe abdominal injuries. Probably in excruciating pain. Someone answered that question. Regardless of the situation and the fact that this person could have been previously trying to kill them, someone made that decision out of compassion, not out of malice. Sounds like I would have done the same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #54 December 13, 2004 QuoteMy point was that he did not kill him in action by mistake. Apparently he had time to make a decision and his decision was bad. The line between what is right or wrong is sometimes blurred in different situations. It's not always clear. Despite what the rules might say in some book. His may have been a bad choice. The military obviously decided as such. However, given the circumstances, I'm sure that's why his sentence wasn't extreme. It certainly doesn't help the soldiers much when a CNN camera is following their every move. That complicates things exponentially when the "uneducated" public opinion is factored in. Soldiers should be controlled on the ground by commanders and punishment should occur within. The world shouldn't have access to video like that, make one-dimensional judgments, and make life harder for all involved. Joe Shmo sitting at home in front of his computer who decided not to toe the line himself but to ride the comfort wagon of security paid for by soldiers like this should mind his own fu%$ing business and keep on enjoying the good life without arm-chair quarterbacking complaint. Yes…I’m done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #55 December 13, 2004 Ron, It is tricky. I don't want to make any strong predictions what I would do or would not do because I am now sitting in my office far away from the action. I know for sure that if someone from my platoon did it, I would not think of him as a criminal and would never report him. I do believe however that his decision was wrong, otherwise we would not be talking about it. pajarito, amen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #56 December 13, 2004 >But, I don't believe human life is worth any more then any other life..... Would you feel the same way if a video showing a US Marine being shot in the head by an insurgent is circulated? Would you call it a mercy killing, because at least he wasn't beheaded? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #57 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAmerican kills American - gets death penalty or life withour parole. American (Kevorkian) assists Americans commit suicide out of mercy. Gets 10 - 25 years. American kills Iraqi kid. Gets 3 years. How is that NOT the way it will be viewed? If an American kills an American who is trying to kill him...Nothing happens to him. Dr. K helped others die even after the Courts ordered him to stop. Until then he had helped many and was not going to serve any time.... American kills an Iraqi that most likley seconds ago was trying to kill him, or kills a guy that is going to die anyway...but it will be long and painful. Besides in this case justice was done. You may not agree with the sentance, but you don't seem to be looking at it from the frame of reference of the situations either. 1. Dr. K. did not get 10 - 25 for contempt of court, that's irrelevant. 2. You state without proof that the kid was likely trying to kill him,and proceed to draw conclusions from the assumption. 3. All of Dr. Kevorkians "victims" were dying slow and painful deaths.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #58 December 13, 2004 I think considering that it was a combat satiation I am just happy it was not swept under the rug. It is crazy how some people look at the Iraqi combatants, insurgents, and freedom fighters what ever you want to call them as if they are responsible. We are the invaders. Even if we kill insurgents we are the cause of it. I should correct that. For every one who is killed Iraqi, American, etc. I feel our president and his supporters are responsible. All this is because of you the war supporter. I hope you are all happy with your decision I am happy with mine.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #59 December 13, 2004 Quote1. Dr. K. did not get 10 - 25 for contempt of court, that's irrelevant. Dr.K had killed people before, and did not go to jail for those killings. He was told to stop, and he assisted a few more people. He then went to jail. If had not continued, he would not have gone to jail. For this situation to be the same the soldier would have had to have shot one guy, been told to stop, and then shot another anyway. Quote2. You state without proof that the kid was likely trying to kill him,and proceed to draw conclusions from the assumption. This I can admit to. Quote3. All of Dr. Kevorkians "victims" were dying slow and painful deaths. And this soldiers victim was dying a slow painfull death."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #60 December 13, 2004 QuoteIt is crazy how some people look at the Iraqi combatants, insurgents, and freedom fighters what ever you want to call them as if they are responsible. We are the invaders. Even if we kill insurgents we are the cause of it. Wow... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #61 December 13, 2004 link QuoteThe military tribunal heard witness testimony that troops fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City. Other soldiers arrived to find a burning truck and casualties around it. Witnesses said the soldiers, including Horne, tried to rescue the teenager from inside the vehicle, but decided he was beyond help because of severe burns and abdominal wounds. A criminal investigator said the soldiers decided "the best course of action was to put (the victim) out of his misery." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #62 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote3. All of Dr. Kevorkians "victims" were dying slow and painful deaths. And this soldiers victim was dying a slow painfull death. SO how is it different again? Mercy killing is OK if it's an Iraqi kid, but not if it's an American who has asked to die?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #63 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote This soldier did what he had to do ... Completely disagree. He made a wrong desision taking a human life in no-combat situation. Ok your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #64 December 13, 2004 QuoteSO how is it different again? Mercy killing is OK if it's an Iraqi kid, but not if it's an American who has asked to die? It does not seem that it is OK. Dr. K went to prison for killing several people. And he was sentanced to what 10 years? This soldier killed only one and got 3 years...seems DrK got off easy."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #65 December 13, 2004 QuoteSO how is it different again? Mercy killing is OK if it's an Iraqi kid, but not if it's an American who has asked to die? The environment of war is very different from the peaceful existence that we both enjoy back here. The comparison between a medicated American lying in bed with a painful terminal illness who is asking to die is a far stretch from an insurgent mortally wounded and about to burn to death in a truck. The attempt to make the events of war relative to the ones we experience in America in peacetime doesn't always work. Again, I don't think anyone who hasn't served their time should have the privilage to critique what a soldier has done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #66 December 13, 2004 QuoteOk your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. Wouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #67 December 13, 2004 QuoteWouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Case in point. QuoteThe environment of war is very different from the peaceful existence that we both enjoy back here. The comparison between a medicated American lying in bed with a painful terminal illness who is asking to die is a far stretch from an insurgent mortally wounded and about to burn to death in a truck. The attempt to make the events of war relative to the ones we experience in America in peacetime doesn't always work. Again, I don't think anyone who hasn't served their time should have the privilage to critique what a soldier has done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #68 December 13, 2004 QuoteTypical "I HATE AMERICA" rant Anything new, or just spewing the usual "I hate America" thing. This kind of thing has happened in every war, and has been done by every country. The only reason it's getting attention is the insane policy of embedded reporters. You never answered one particular question, Botellines, and your silence speaks volumes: Have you ever been in the miliary, in peace or wartime? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #69 December 13, 2004 QuoteCase in point. I clearly remember certain areas of LA being called a war zone But i agree that it is next to impossible to come up with a fair comparison. Fact remains that it is not something he is allowed to do, or he would not have been court martialed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #70 December 13, 2004 QuoteI clearly remember certain areas of LA being called a war zone Maybe. But an entirely different situation altogether. QuoteBut i agree that it is next to impossible to come up with a fair comparison. Fact remains that it is not something he is allowed to do, or he would not have been court martialed. I agree that he broke the rules. I don't think it helps matters that the story has been broadcast all over the world now, though. If it truly went down like it was described above, I'm not so sure he should have gotten a penalty as severe as he did. Seriously. Yes. He screwed up but the circumstances behind it all are important. I don't think it warrants 3 years in jail. The fact that he will spend that kind of time in jail probably has a little to do with the fact that the media gets to broadcast his mistake almost in realtime around the globe and "uneducated public opinion" will demand that the boy be hung out to dry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites killler 2 #71 December 13, 2004 One more time..... If the US Marine was burning to death or half blown up (was in pain/dying ) I would not have any trouble with it.... And in fact would be glad it was a fast painless death for him.... You may have watched to many movies of the guy laying there smoking and praying to god well writing a last letter home.... Believe me it's not like that..... Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #72 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. Wouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Of course not the cop would have followed dept procedures and called the fire trucks and the EMT's. Hopefully he would have waited in his car with the radio turned up so he didn't have to listen to the screams while waiting for the rescue people get there to late. R.I.P. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #73 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteSorry, my post may not have been as clear as it should. This seems to be a trait on your posts. You should make it more clear, although many of us in here can see it coming from very far away.... More of your one line posts. Really, your opinion was much more valid when you used to copy-paste peacefuljeffrey´s posts. Go figure. Again, when you do not have anything to add to the thread other than personal attacks, it is when you should consider the virtue of silence. Edited to add some spelling mistakes so Juanesky can attack my post instead of my person... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #74 December 13, 2004 Quote Anything new, or just spewing the usual "I hate America" thing. clicky QuoteThis kind of thing has happened in every war, and has been done by every country. The only reason it's getting attention is the insane policy of embedded reporters. So that it happens in every war makes it alright... Damn reporters... always killing all the fun... QuoteYou never answered one particular question, Botellines, and your silence speaks volumes: Have you ever been in the miliary, in peace or wartime? You never asked me that particular question, so my silence must speak volumes only to you. As i have said in some other thread, although not to you specifically, No i have NOT been in the military. I am the guy who gives away a third of his salary so the military of my country can do their job. and no, not being in the military does not disqualify me to speak about this sort of situations... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #75 December 13, 2004 Hombre, you are much too sensible. Just ask him, WHO TF IS "...many of us..."?? North, South, Middle Americans, Brits, Irish, Indians, or ? They may show up and talk for themselves. My simple opinion on that. Cheers. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
slug 1 #63 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote This soldier did what he had to do ... Completely disagree. He made a wrong desision taking a human life in no-combat situation. Ok your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #64 December 13, 2004 QuoteSO how is it different again? Mercy killing is OK if it's an Iraqi kid, but not if it's an American who has asked to die? It does not seem that it is OK. Dr. K went to prison for killing several people. And he was sentanced to what 10 years? This soldier killed only one and got 3 years...seems DrK got off easy."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #65 December 13, 2004 QuoteSO how is it different again? Mercy killing is OK if it's an Iraqi kid, but not if it's an American who has asked to die? The environment of war is very different from the peaceful existence that we both enjoy back here. The comparison between a medicated American lying in bed with a painful terminal illness who is asking to die is a far stretch from an insurgent mortally wounded and about to burn to death in a truck. The attempt to make the events of war relative to the ones we experience in America in peacetime doesn't always work. Again, I don't think anyone who hasn't served their time should have the privilage to critique what a soldier has done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #66 December 13, 2004 QuoteOk your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. Wouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #67 December 13, 2004 QuoteWouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Case in point. QuoteThe environment of war is very different from the peaceful existence that we both enjoy back here. The comparison between a medicated American lying in bed with a painful terminal illness who is asking to die is a far stretch from an insurgent mortally wounded and about to burn to death in a truck. The attempt to make the events of war relative to the ones we experience in America in peacetime doesn't always work. Again, I don't think anyone who hasn't served their time should have the privilage to critique what a soldier has done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #68 December 13, 2004 QuoteTypical "I HATE AMERICA" rant Anything new, or just spewing the usual "I hate America" thing. This kind of thing has happened in every war, and has been done by every country. The only reason it's getting attention is the insane policy of embedded reporters. You never answered one particular question, Botellines, and your silence speaks volumes: Have you ever been in the miliary, in peace or wartime? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #69 December 13, 2004 QuoteCase in point. I clearly remember certain areas of LA being called a war zone But i agree that it is next to impossible to come up with a fair comparison. Fact remains that it is not something he is allowed to do, or he would not have been court martialed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #70 December 13, 2004 QuoteI clearly remember certain areas of LA being called a war zone Maybe. But an entirely different situation altogether. QuoteBut i agree that it is next to impossible to come up with a fair comparison. Fact remains that it is not something he is allowed to do, or he would not have been court martialed. I agree that he broke the rules. I don't think it helps matters that the story has been broadcast all over the world now, though. If it truly went down like it was described above, I'm not so sure he should have gotten a penalty as severe as he did. Seriously. Yes. He screwed up but the circumstances behind it all are important. I don't think it warrants 3 years in jail. The fact that he will spend that kind of time in jail probably has a little to do with the fact that the media gets to broadcast his mistake almost in realtime around the globe and "uneducated public opinion" will demand that the boy be hung out to dry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #71 December 13, 2004 One more time..... If the US Marine was burning to death or half blown up (was in pain/dying ) I would not have any trouble with it.... And in fact would be glad it was a fast painless death for him.... You may have watched to many movies of the guy laying there smoking and praying to god well writing a last letter home.... Believe me it's not like that..... Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #72 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk your correct so the soldier should have walked away and let the kid burn to death. Wouldn't that pretty much be what he probably would ahve done if you move this scene to LA? let's say he was a cop and had a little gang shootout with some kids. One gets stuck in a burning truck, heavily wounded. You would be ok with the cop being a doctor (deciding he could not medically be saved) and judge and jury and executioner? Of course not the cop would have followed dept procedures and called the fire trucks and the EMT's. Hopefully he would have waited in his car with the radio turned up so he didn't have to listen to the screams while waiting for the rescue people get there to late. R.I.P. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #73 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteSorry, my post may not have been as clear as it should. This seems to be a trait on your posts. You should make it more clear, although many of us in here can see it coming from very far away.... More of your one line posts. Really, your opinion was much more valid when you used to copy-paste peacefuljeffrey´s posts. Go figure. Again, when you do not have anything to add to the thread other than personal attacks, it is when you should consider the virtue of silence. Edited to add some spelling mistakes so Juanesky can attack my post instead of my person... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #74 December 13, 2004 Quote Anything new, or just spewing the usual "I hate America" thing. clicky QuoteThis kind of thing has happened in every war, and has been done by every country. The only reason it's getting attention is the insane policy of embedded reporters. So that it happens in every war makes it alright... Damn reporters... always killing all the fun... QuoteYou never answered one particular question, Botellines, and your silence speaks volumes: Have you ever been in the miliary, in peace or wartime? You never asked me that particular question, so my silence must speak volumes only to you. As i have said in some other thread, although not to you specifically, No i have NOT been in the military. I am the guy who gives away a third of his salary so the military of my country can do their job. and no, not being in the military does not disqualify me to speak about this sort of situations... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #75 December 13, 2004 Hombre, you are much too sensible. Just ask him, WHO TF IS "...many of us..."?? North, South, Middle Americans, Brits, Irish, Indians, or ? They may show up and talk for themselves. My simple opinion on that. Cheers. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
