US Troops using scrap metal for armor

[jcd11235 0]

First, we won the American Revolution because we were aided by, you guessed it, France.

I have found no example of a general well studied in Taoist warfare (Sun Tzu) that has been defeated by a general well studied in western war. Just because we are the best funded does not make us the strongest military. Great generals do not win close battles. Great generals resolve conflict before there is a need for bloodshed.

We focus on new technology, instead of fundamentals, so we are always prepared for the last war, and not the next one. Sun Tzu teaches to use situation to your advantage. That this war is different than the last could have been used to our favor, and not to our detriment.

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In Reply To
without popular support at home or abroad

He had support at home. Congress gave it to him. And as for abroad...Well I don't care, and neither do most Americans.

The key word is popular, as from the population, not from Congress, who gave permission to invade Iraq ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. He has never had popular support from his countrymen. As far as the rest of the world, the reason we have such a bad image worldwide is because we expect everyone else to submit to the authority of the international community, but we feel that we are above it. I've never met anyone who like a hypocrite.

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[Ron 10]

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First, we won the American Revolution because we were aided by, you guessed it, France.

Just get finished watching the Patriot?

There were several factors as why we won over the British. Another was the fact that they had to ship things from Europe.

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I have found no example of a general well studied in Taoist warfare (Sun Tzu) that has been defeated by a general well studied in western war

I have found no General that had the best stuff that has been defeated by a Taoist master either.

Like I said good CONCEPTS, but they have to be applied to modern warfare. And that is something that does not happen.

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Just because we are the best funded does not make us the strongest military.

Seemed to work for the North in the Revolution.

Given the option of going to war with a stick or a gun...I'll pick the gun.

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Great generals do not win close battles. Great generals resolve conflict before there is a need for bloodshed.

Generals don't choose to fight, politicians do. Generals just follow the orders.

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We focus on new technology, instead of fundamentals, so we are always prepared for the last war, and not the next one.

No the fundamentals change. In WW1 you needed to be able to dig a good trench. WW2 you needed defenses against track vehicals, and air support.
Korea we were thinking the wrong type of battle plans and were run over in no time against an enemy that would throw people at a problem. They thought that 100 men each with 5 bullets was better than 5 men with 100 bullets. Vietnam we tried to move company sized units through a dense jungle. The Vcon had small 3-5 man teams trained in strike and run tactics. It was not until near the end of the war that we started to value the smaller unit ideas.

Most of the injuries/deaths in Iraq are from IED's. Some of these are detonated by cell phone to a pager. We were not ready for that. In fact most military advisors thought the MOUT operations would be the largest problem based on Somolia.

The military, ANY military has a problem in that it always trains for the last war they were in.

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He has never had popular support from his countrymen

His approval rating was high at the start of the war and he won the last election.

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As far as the rest of the world, the reason we have such a bad image worldwide is because we expect everyone else to submit to the authority of the international community, but we feel that we are above it. I've never met anyone who like a hypocrite.

When the internation comunity follows its own rules I will care what they think.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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I KNOW what angle will deflect a bullet from an AK, since I shot at the armor WITH an AK47 in training.

Would you be kind enough to tell us what the critical angle that means the difference between deflection and penetration? For you to do pratically what can easily be done theoretically with basic Trigonometry and Calculus (and knowledge of materials) would require a multitude of shots from different angles from a multitude of different distances. And, to be objective, each shot should be aimed at a new flak vest, so as to preclude cumulative damage. Don't forget quality control, so each distance/angle combination should be tested a few times to make sure all vests meet the same standards. And not all rounds are created equal, so you need a seperate test for each different type of round. So to get an idea of the complete performance envelope by your method of test shooting one another, would require thousands of rounds and flak vests. There is a reason scientists do not use trial and error (fire for effect) as their primary means of obtaining useful data.

So, once again, what was that critical angle?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 10]

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Would you be kind enough to tell us what the critical angle that means the difference between deflection and penetration?

Its about that much. You can't see, but right now I am showing you the angle.

See I didn't need a protractor to measure it it...And I don't have one with me right now to measure my arms...

I bet most guys don't have a protractor right now.

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For you to do pratically what can easily be done theoretically with basic Trigonometry and Calculus (and knowledge of materials) would require a multitude of shots from different angles from a multitude of different distances.

Which I don't, and most soldiers don't have. But the guys in my squad know the angle since we did it.

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So, once again, what was that critical angle?

Like I said, its that right there...But you don't know, and I don't have a protractor to measure it.

Enjoy the comfort of your protractor in a firefight.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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I bet most guys don't have a protractor right now.

Protractors are what people who do not understand trigonometry use to measure angles. I've haven't used one since elementary school.

I would not want to be in a unit that did such half assed experiments with equipment that their life depended on. Much better to get reliable information from a competent engineer. There is no substitute for good intelligence, and that is something your limited experimental methods cannot provide.

Distance
Angle
Round material
air density
air viscocity

Change any one of those variables a little bit, and the critical angle changes. You did test all of those variables, right? Because if you didn't, your conclusion is invalid.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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Change any one of those variables a little bit, and the critical angle changes. You did test all of those variables, right? Because if you didn't, your conclusion is invalid.

Natural statistical variation in inputs occurs in everything. That means for Ron to say it's about "this much" is just about as accurate as you can get concerning rounds fired from a hand held or even moving vehicle. Particularly with the group doing the testing. I see nothing 'limited' in empirical data gathering and application of principles. And "Field testing" is a proven methodology in most every industry after the engineers are through with their part.

And the tactic of trying to complicate and 2nd guess practical testing by throwing out high variation or uncontrolled inputs is a self-serving and cheap tactic that isn't highly valued in any company I know.

In otherwords, it seems to me you're just trying to pick a fight for no real reason.

Jeez Ron, did you dump his sister or something?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,111]

>Enjoy the comfort of your protractor in a firefight.

"Real men don't use math."

Many years ago I helped design a CDU retrofit for the EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft. The CDU is a cockpit display unit that allows the crew to control things like IFF, VHF and UHF radios etc from one location. It worked pretty well. Now, the pilots of those aircraft may not have protractors, or indeed even known trigonometry. But when they used the CDU to call in the location of an enemy radar installation, I'd bet they are glad that we used a whole lot of math instead of just trying a bunch of stuff.

The reason things like F-14's work even as well as they do (and they're not perfect) is that people can design them on paper and get pretty close to reality before putting people in harm's way testing it. Burt Rutan does most of his designing on a computer before he risks a human pilot. When I worked at Grumman, we did man-decades of work before we'd field an F-14 or A-6 upgrade. "Make the rib doubler this thick" (you can't see me, I'm holding up my thumb and finger) would have resulted in dead pilots - and I have a feeling even you would care about that.

[Ron 10]

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Protractors are what people who do not understand trigonometry use to measure angles. I've haven't used one since elementary school.

See, not even you have one...So if you were invloved in a fight I doubt you would break out the pen and paper to do some quick trig.

Besides the objective was to teach us that even with the RBA we were still most likely gonna bleed if we were hit. It did that quite well. It also allowed us the actual training to know that our 5.56 rounds would do nothing to a guy with Body armor on...So if we encountered a guy with armor we had to aim other than center of mass.

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I would not want to be in a unit that did such half assed experiments with equipment that their life depended on

I would rather do these kinds of half assed experiments than have a guy do some quick trig in a firefight. Or have some guy just assume that he is OK with the RBA...I hate the idea of carrying a dead know it all.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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"Real men don't use math."

You ever see me say/type that?

Nope so don't put words into my mouth.

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The reason things like F-14's work even as well as they do (and they're not perfect) is that people can design them on paper and get pretty close to reality before putting people in harm's way testing it.

Yep, but you still have to test it at some point.

The point in the exercise was to show that RBA is not perfect and will not protect you as much as the guys thought it would. You could have said that all day till you were blue in the face.

One bullet going right through the armor was enough to make everyone realize that.

So again...I challenge you to find ONE place were I have said that "Real men don't use math". And if you can't I would like it if you stop trying to make it seem like I did.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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In otherwords, it seems to me you're just trying to pick a fight for no real reason.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, only illustrate the significant weaknesses of a system he believes is infallable. He claims the engineering side can offer no useful info, and I am saying that that is where the majority of useful info comes from. Physical testing is great for verification, but as a first means of information, it is a poor path.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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See, not even you have one...So if you were invloved in a fight I doubt you would break out the pen and paper to do some quick trig.

More likely, I would have already obtained the information, just like I took a ground school before making my first skydive. During the fact is a poor way to learn.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 10]

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Physical testing is great for verification, but as a first means of information, it is a poor path.

And where in any of my posts did I say it was the only testing?

The simple fact is that it was a valuble lesson for the soldiers.

You are the one saying that practical testing is worthless... I never said that engineering was.

Geeze.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[slug 1]

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In otherwords, it seems to me you're just trying to pick a fight for no real reason.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, only illustrate the significant weaknesses of a system he believes is infallable. He claims the engineering side can offer no useful info, and I am saying that that is where the majority of useful info comes from. Physical testing is great for verification, but as a first means of information, it is a poor path.

This is speakers corner

R.I.P.

[billvon 3,111]

>You ever see me say/type that?

"Enjoy the comfort of your protractor in a firefight." In other words, all your fancy math won't do shit when it's life-or-death. It's a common misconception.

[Ron 10]

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>You ever see me say/type that?

"Enjoy the comfort of your protractor in a firefight." In other words, all your fancy math won't do shit when it's life-or-death. It's a common misconception.

So you just assumed and tried to put words into my mouth?

Just like you did again.

And can't even admit it.

I see.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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You are the one saying that practical testing is worthless... I never said that engineering was.

Practical testing is not worthless, but its value is increased tremendously when used with conjunction with engineering / math.

Are the privates in Basic Training the foremost experts on the gas mask after the trip to the gas chamber? No. They do learn to trust their equipment, and that is good, but they do not learn why their equipment works, or its limitations.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 10]

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Practical testing is not worthless, but its value is increased tremendously when used with conjunction with engineering / math.

Have I said otherwise?

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Are the privates in Basic Training the foremost experts on the gas mask after the trip to the gas chamber? No. They do learn to trust their equipment, and that is good, but they do not learn why their equipment works, or its limitations.

They learn some very important limitations. You can't see well with it on and it will not work well with some peoples faces if they "make faces".

The objective to shooting the armor was not to test it...That had been done long before. The objective was to show its strengths and weaknesses to the soldiers that were going to wear it....And that it did quite well. Better than any report I could have them read. And as you have said I doubt many would understand the physics that make it work.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,111]

In the immortal words of Dan Perkins - "Yeah. Whatever."

[Ron 10]

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In the immortal words of Dan Perkins - "Yeah. Whatever."

wow as much as you slam bush for not being able to admit a mistake....I would think you would.

But maybe you just had some "bad intel"?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gravitymaster 0]

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In the immortal words of Dan Perkins - "Yeah. Whatever."

Actually that's what my neighbors teenage daughter says all the time.

[billvon 3,111]

>Actually that's what my neighbors teenage daughter says all the time.

Dan too. I got him a great shirt for christmas. It shows a cow and a cat. The cow says "moo," the cat says "meow" and the cow says "whatever." Some other Danisms:

"If you're on Shark Air 4, well . . . . whoop de doo."

"Hey everyone, it's XXXX's last day! Be sure to say goodbye to him."

"Marco."

"Hey Luigi, that's your plane - Luigi - someone hit Luigi for me."

[slug 1]

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I've never shot at it. Lightfighters aren't well equipped, by design, so we make the most of our equipment and supplies. We would never waste bullets by shooting at the armor.

We shot at it to teach us it's limits. 5.56 bounced off with a nice scratch. 7.62 went right through.

Since most bad guys seemed to be carrying an AK or some variant of an AK....Well it did not make us feel good.

Damn so we designed body armor (B.A.) to protect us from our own weapons but not the enemy who would be using 7.62 ammo

If I was bad guy in Iraq and the infidels were using 5.5? stuff

Do you know if the latest and the greatest B.A. will stop a 7.62 round?

R.I.P.

[kallend 2,146]

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"Real men don't use math."

You ever see me say/type that?

Nope so don't put words into my mouth.

.

You've badmouthed people using math a dozen times this week already, Ron. It's becoming a joke on you.

To design modern armor plate by trial and error from the known elements of the periodic table would take longer than the known age of the universe. Theory (and math) cuts it down to a matter of months.

Same applies to all modern hi-tech materials, whether it be magnetic coatings for disk drives or turbine blades for jet engines.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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You've badmouthed people using math a dozen times this week already, Ron. It's becoming a joke on you.

No, I have not bad mouthed people for using math. I have said that people who think math is the ONLY answer are missing the big picture.

And the joke on you is you can't see the benefits of trial and error, or anything else that can't be fiqured with out a slide rule. This makes it so you can't fix anything with out tons of research making you useless in tight situations that require fast action.

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To design modern armor plate by trial and error from the known elements of the periodic table would take longer than the known age of the universe. Theory (and math) cuts it down to a matter of months.

Same applies to all modern hi-tech materials, whether it be magnetic coatings for disk drives or turbine blades for jet engines.

And before any of those things are used by just anyone they go through real world testing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gravitymaster 0]

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You've badmouthed people using math a dozen times this week already, Ron. It's becoming a joke on you.

No, I have not bad mouthed people for using math. I have said that people who think math is the ONLY answer are missing the big picture.

And the joke on you is you can't see the benefits of trial and error, or anything else that can't be fiqured with out a slide rule. This makes it so you can't fix anything with out tons of research making you useless in tight situations that require fast action.

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To design modern armor plate by trial and error from the known elements of the periodic table would take longer than the known age of the universe. Theory (and math) cuts it down to a matter of months.

Same applies to all modern hi-tech materials, whether it be magnetic coatings for disk drives or turbine blades for jet engines.

And before any of those things are used by just anyone they go through real world testing.

Why do I keep thinking about a teenager who has built model cars, has tons of car magazines, has read technical repair manuals on cars, and now thinks he knows how to drive?