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ChasingBlueSky

US Troops using scrap metal for armor

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There's a lot of argument about going to war when not ready... I still can't get past the idea that they were pretty ready (as well as you can be) but that the commanders on the ground are employing these vehicles in entirely the wrong way.

Humvees are being put into combat situations where army doctrine would suggest the use of an armoured vehicle. Even when up armoured these trucks are not designed to be used as armoured vehicles. If the commanders want armoured vehicles there are hundreds of them in the army... why on earth use a humvee, (even an up-armoured humvee) instead?

Forget all the rear echelon stuff and how there are no front lines; I'm talking about combat troops going into battle in a vehicle not designed for the task in which it is being employed. Someone has got it into their head that a humvee is an armoured vehicle. It is not.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of APC's and IFV's in service in the US army, those are the vehicles that should be used in such instances. Looking at the cost of up-armouring these vehicles it can't be that much more expensive to ship more of the existing APC stock out to the gulf.

Humvees are a great tool and have a very broad place in the modern army. But they were never designed to be used in the way in which they now find themselves deployed.

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The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time.



Just curious if you would consider re-taking Fajula a minor offensive? Last I heard they needed to call up more troops to Iraq due to this battle and the troops that will need to remain in the city so we don't lose it again.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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I bet I know more about armor than you do.



You ever worn it?

Ever shot at it?

Ever get issued a set?

Or is all your knoledge based on math?

Cause, Ive worn it.



Very good. You forget that I'm a materials engineer as well as a physicist (multitasking).

I've worked for the US Army on armor development and testing, for the US Navy and DoE on armor piercing projectiles (both HEAT and penetrator), and I was a consultant for the Secret Service on armor plating for limos (guess who's). Any questions?

PS Perhaps you'll tell us how wearing armor makes anyone an expert at procuring an adequate supply to go into an optional war.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Very good. You forget that I'm a materials engineer as well as a physicist (multitasking).



Nope I know what you do.
Did you forget what I did?

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I've worked for the US Army on armor development and testing, for the US Navy and DoE on armor piercing projectiles (both HEAT and penetrator), and I was a consultant for the Secret Service on armor plating for limos (guess who's). Any questions?



We ahve talked about this...But then again you never answered my questions. Have you worn Body armor? Have you shot at body armor, or is all your knowledge based on math?

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PS Perhaps you'll tell us how wearing armor makes anyone an expert at procuring an adequate supply to go into an optional war.



Maybe you can tell me how know the math behind body armor makes you an expert in the politics behind its use?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If the primary tactic of the enemy is roadside bombs and RPG fire, shouldn't we protect against their primary tactic?



Then use equipment that was designed for that? Humvees were NOT designed for that. The Stryker was. (Sort of).

I say give the troops what they need. My issue is how people think you can be prepared for war. You can't base don two things:

1. You don't know what the war will be like, and by the time you figure it out...It will have changed.

2. NO ONE (Democrat or Republican) is willing to spend what it would take to bubble wrap our troops in armor during a time of peace. And you can never get it out fast enough once you need it.

The SAME thing happend in WWII. Then the US kicked in production of war supplies. By the end of the war we had so many planes we were just pushing them off into the sea.

This is the same thing.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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One point mitigating the fault of the administration I heard from a retired general turned military analyst on Meet the Press this weekend....

...The Guard units that are complaining about being under equipped or having outdated equipment are responsible for regularly reporting their state of readiness. If they had reported the lack of sufficient quantities or quality of supplies when they were supposed to, they wouldn't be in as bad a shape now.

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Maybe you can tell me how know the math behind body armor makes you an expert in the politics behind its use?



I haven't done any math on armor, I don't know where you got that idea. I'm just as much an expert in politics as you are.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured.

News 10 Stocton
Story last updated Monday, December 13, 2004 - 12:14 AM

CEO of Lodi Firm Says Armor Production Could Be Stepped Up

The head of a Lodi company that makes armor for military vehicles is disputing a statement made by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to disgruntled National Guard troops.

. . . Rumsfeld repled that many military vehicles in Iraq lack armor because it can't be made fast enough.

It's a statement contradicted by Mark Frater, CEO of R.E. Services in Lodi. The company makes laminated plates used as armor on military vehicles. Frater told the Stockton Record that the company is currently running only a single shift, but could have people working around the clock if it had enough orders from the military.
-------------------------------------------------
Humvee makers say they're ready with armor

By George Edmonson

Palm Beach Post-Cox News Service

Friday, December 10, 2004

WASHINGTON — Despite what Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld implied earlier this week, the manufacturer of Humvees for the U.S. military and the company that adds armor to the utility vehicles are not running near production capacity and are making all that the Pentagon has requested, spokesmen for both companies said.
---------------------------------------------

The one good thing to come out of all of this is that they are now taking the issue seriously, and are getting the armor out there. Too late for some, but hopefully it will save people in the future.

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If the primary tactic of the enemy is roadside bombs and RPG fire, shouldn't we protect against their primary tactic?



Then use equipment that was designed for that? Humvees were NOT designed for that. The Stryker was. (Sort of).

I say give the troops what they need. My issue is how people think you can be prepared for war. You can't base don two things:

1. You don't know what the war will be like, and by the time you figure it out...It will have changed.

2. NO ONE (Democrat or Republican) is willing to spend what it would take to bubble wrap our troops in armor during a time of peace. And you can never get it out fast enough once you need it.



Well, they could have saved enough to buy all the Humvee armor needed for the next 100 years if they'd canceled the so-called missile shield that doesn't work and won't work.

Making armor is not exactly the Manhattan Project in scope and complexity.



.


...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Ah.. I see.

The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss".

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The generals are not political appointee's so please don't play the politic's card, their career professional soliders.

After a election their bosses might change but they still have a job.

R.I.P.

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I haven't done any math on armor, I don't know where you got that idea.



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Very good. You forget that I'm a materials engineer as well as a physicist (multitasking).

I've worked for the US Army on armor development and testing, for the US Navy and DoE on armor piercing projectiles (both HEAT and penetrator), and I was a consultant for the Secret Service on armor plating for limos (guess who's). Any questions?



How did you do all that with out math? You are not know for your demolition skills, and I didn't see you list Special Forces Weapons specalist in that post?

I could of course be wrong...I did assume that a Physics prof. And Materials Eng...Used math.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Well, they could have saved enough to buy all the Humvee armor needed for the next 100 years if they'd canceled the so-called missile shield that doesn't work and won't work.

Making armor is not exactly the Manhattan Project in scope and complexity



Maybe you didn't read the post you replied to:

Quote

1. You don't know what the war will be like, and by the time you figure it out...It will have changed.

2. NO ONE (Democrat or Republican) is willing to spend what it would take to bubble wrap our troops in armor during a time of peace. And you can never get it out fast enough once you need it.



The missle shield won't work huh? I know folks who thought that you could never split an atom, Man cannot fly, others thought the earth was flat, and still others thought the Earth was the center of the universe.


Could you be wrong?

How do you know if you don't test things and try things?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Anything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement.



Having worked directly for General Whitcomb, I can tell you that he is not a smoke blower... If Rummy asked him how his new suit looked, and he was naked, Whitcomb would tell him he was soup
sandwich...
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Hmm I've been in meetings with generals where they had a bird colonel carry their eveglasses and briefcases for them.

Before the meetings started the Colonel would survey the room and place the generals eyeglasses in fromt of a strategic seat and the brief case on the chair.

You may have worked with the General but unless you had a slot on the signature ladder of his coresspondence or was present during his meetings with his bosses (possiable) maybe there a difference between what he said he said and what really happened.

R.I.P.

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Well, they could have saved enough to buy all the Humvee armor needed for the next 100 years if they'd canceled the so-called missile shield that doesn't work and won't work.



Off topic here but did you see that making contact with the incoming projectile is NOT an objective in the testing happening in Alaska?
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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I haven't done any math on armor, I don't know where you got that idea.



From this post:
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Very good. You forget that I'm a materials engineer as well as a physicist (multitasking).

I've worked for the US Army on armor development and testing, for the US Navy and DoE on armor piercing projectiles (both HEAT and penetrator), and I was a consultant for the Secret Service on armor plating for limos (guess who's). Any questions?



How did you do all that with out math? You are not know for your demolition skills, and I didn't see you list Special Forces Weapons specalist in that post?

I could of course be wrong...I did assume that a Physics prof. And Materials Eng...Used math.



Ass-uming is very dangerous. We developed manufacturing processes that produced the best properties, measured ballistic limits, did lots of empirical tests and very little math beyond what was needed to analyze the results.

I actually know a lot about processes for making and testing armor and armor penetrators.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You may have worked with the General but unless you had a slot on the signature ladder of his coresspondence or was present during his meetings with his bosses (possiable) maybe there a difference between what he said he said and what really happened.



I was a direct report for more than one operation, and have been present in plenty of meetings with him and his bosses... He was always a straight shooter... as for the aid getting a good seat for a general, thats fairly common... I've seen LTs have their PSGs score them an advantagous seat for meetings, its also fairly common with execs in the business world, even to the point of adjusting the seat height.

J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Well, they could have saved enough to buy all the Humvee armor needed for the next 100 years if they'd canceled the so-called missile shield that doesn't work and won't work.

Making armor is not exactly the Manhattan Project in scope and complexity



Maybe you didn't read the post you replied to:

Quote

1. You don't know what the war will be like, and by the time you figure it out...It will have changed.

2. NO ONE (Democrat or Republican) is willing to spend what it would take to bubble wrap our troops in armor during a time of peace. And you can never get it out fast enough once you need it.



The missle shield won't work huh? I know folks who thought that you could never split an atom, Man cannot fly, others thought the earth was flat, and still others thought the Earth was the center of the universe.


Could you be wrong?

How do you know if you don't test things and try things?



The current system is fundamentally flawed in concept as well as execution. Not only has it never passed a realistic test (all the test targets have been fitted with homing beacons - just like the Iranians and Koreans will do - NOT.), but the simplest of deception measures are just about impossible to defend against. The $billions would have been far better spent elsewhere.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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What if 450 is the correct level of planning and upping production to 550 is just public relations as a direct result of the forum comments? That would equal unnecessary spending.

Of course the supplier will go on record in a position which will increase their profits. Briliant move. Most of the lefties will have a hard time here - who do they hate more, the government or a military contractor?

All these postings assume "more is better". Typical. Why should that be correct vs just working to the plan?



Sorry my posting is based on supporting our troops so the won't get hurt because their riding in a tin can.Politic has nothing to do with it:o

Rummy told the troops that the armored Humvees were being produced at the max rate. A increase of 22% in production isn't close to max rate. Rummy screwed up he should have said I'll look into it and get with you. Then he would have gotten the credit for the increase in rate of production.

The total number of heavy humvees ordered hasn't changed just the rate of production.

The increase in the production rate will require a change to the origional contract due to the aditional cost of labor (overtime). The contractor's cost will increase so his profit will also go up but the percentage will stay the same.

Don't have a clue of labor costs vs material costs.

Politic's card: left right who's the prick in the middle
:S:):o

R.I.P.

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Ass-uming is very dangerous. We developed manufacturing processes that produced the best properties, measured ballistic limits, did lots of empirical tests and very little math beyond what was needed to analyze the results.



So you used math? You didn't actually fire at the armor?

I rest my case.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The current system is fundamentally flawed in concept as well as execution. Not only has it never passed a realistic test (all the test targets have been fitted with homing beacons - just like the Iranians and Koreans will do - NOT.), but the simplest of deception measures are just about impossible to defend against.



I am sure the atom splitting went well at first also.

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The $billions would have been far better spent elsewhere.



Your OPINION and you have admitted you don't know everything about politics.

So could you be wrong?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ass-uming is very dangerous. We developed manufacturing processes that produced the best properties, measured ballistic limits, did lots of empirical tests and very little math beyond what was needed to analyze the results.



So you used math? You didn't actually fire at the armor?

I rest my case.



I use math when I go to the grocery store, too. I bet you use math every day. I don't see that comment as being very enlightening.

I take it from your answer that you don't know how ballistic limits are measured.

Besides, what does firing at (or wearing) armor have to do with a decision to send our troops into (optional) combat inadequately equipped? How does it apply to piss poor planning?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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