ChasingBlueSky 0 #226 December 15, 2004 QuoteIt's like trying to explain how we ended up buying a $600 hammer. I know why. I could tell you why. But you wouldn't get it. Could you try - this one has always baffled me. How does additional paperwork increasethe cost of the item?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #227 December 15, 2004 This guy does a much better job, and frankly, I'm lazy. http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1298/120798t1.htm He also touches on some of the BS "reform" that took place in the late nineties that really changed nothing. Good luck.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #228 December 16, 2004 QuoteThere's a place in the middle, between the soldier on the ground (Ron) and the scientist in the lab/industry (Kallend). It's the procurement person. This thread just shows me why my job was so damned impossible and frustrating and unrewarding...imagine having to be the mediator between Ron and Kallend every damned day of your life. It's like trying to explain how we ended up buying a $600 hammer. I know why. I could tell you why. But you wouldn't get it. I kinda do understand...Not at the level you did, but I worked at an S4 shop."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #229 December 16, 2004 QuoteYour basic premise is FLAWED in that you seem to be ass-uming that engineers don't test anything. I really don't think you know what an engineer does. Really? Try again. I don't think you have grasped the simple concept of "The Proof is in the pudding". QuoteI wonder if Paul Tibbets would have preferred to be carrying a bomb designed by pilots and bombardiers, or one designed by physicists. Tibbets didn't care. In fact they didn't know it was going to work till they saw a really big boom. And he has said that. QuoteHow many tests were done on the Little Boy design? On Little Boy itself? None, however they did almost make NM glow from all the testing that lead up to it. They just didn't build it and drop it on Japan. They had to TEST the idea many times first."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #230 December 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour basic premise is FLAWED in that you seem to be ass-uming that engineers don't test anything. I really don't think you know what an engineer does. Really? Trya again. I don't think you have grasped the simple concept of "The Proof is in the pudding". . As I wrote, you really don't appear to know what engineers do. Your posts have repeatedly confused engineers with physicists and mathematicians in this thread.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #231 December 16, 2004 Engineers design and test products that end up being recalled for safety reasons or defective designs all the time. Get real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #232 December 16, 2004 QuoteEngineers design and test products that end up being recalled for safety reasons or defective designs all the time. Get real. What does that have to do with a failure of the Bush administration to supply troops with armor that has already been designed and field tested?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #233 December 16, 2004 John, stop implying Ron is an ass. And there is a point where a thread goes from a discussion to an argument to two people trying to hit each other over the head without getting in trouble - and this has reached that point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #234 December 16, 2004 QuoteI kinda do understand...Not at the level you did, but I worked at an S4 shop. Hmmm...the following says that perhaps you don't: QuoteTibbets didn't care. The warfighter DOES care. They want something that works. Which is why we have a problem now. QuoteThey just didn't build it and drop it on Japan. They had to TEST the idea many times first. Ermmm...I think that's what John is saying, is it not. Hey! You agreed! The problem with T&E nowadays is that most of the testing done while the widget is being designed and built is left COMPLETELY up to the contractor bulding the widget with little to no government oversight. The days of Chuck Yeager and Scotty Crossfield are long gone. There's an inherent conflict of interest in that, don't you think? All of you need to go rent a movie called "The Pentagon Wars". Not much has changed, despite the lip service that it has...Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #235 December 16, 2004 QuoteHmmm...the following says that perhaps you don't: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tibbets didn't care. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The warfighter DOES care. They want something that works. Which is why we have a problem now. Ever talk to Tibbets? I have. He didn't care if it worked or not. He just wanted to drop it and get the hell out from over Japans airspace. A lone B52 does not stand much of a chance....It also didn't pose much of a risk alone at that altitude....Or so the Japanese thought."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #236 December 16, 2004 QuoteEver talk to Tibbets? I have. He didn't care if it worked or not. He just wanted to drop it and get the hell out from over Japans airspace. A lone B52 does not stand much of a chance....It also didn't pose much of a risk alone at that altitude....Or so the Japanese thought Nope. Never talked to him. But in my job I talked to hundreds of pilots, quite a few army commanders (from the field), and even some navy folks (I was in the Air Force), and trust me, they care. They may not understand what we do, but they know the value of good design and testing. Next time you talk to someone who works in an Air Operations Center, ask them how many pieces of software they've received that sit on the shelf unused because they don't work. It's a lot. The problem is, programs get changed so much based on requirements creep, lack of funding, and politics, that nine times out of ten, the original functionality of the widget is lost by the time it gets out in the field. They care. You've demonstrated in this thread that when you were wearing armor, you cared if it worked. So why are you insisting the opposite now?Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #237 December 16, 2004 QuoteThey care. You've demonstrated in this thread that when you were wearing armor, you cared if it worked. So why are you insisting the opposite now? Not the opposite. I care and shooting the armor showed that it *sometimes* worked. My response to Kallend was about TIBBETS. He incorrectly said he cared. And He didn't. You replied to that. Trying to say I didn't know what I was talking about. You didn't know what I was talking about, and incorrectly applied my response about *Tibbets* to every situation."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #238 December 16, 2004 QuoteJohn, stop implying Ron is an ass. And there is a point where a thread goes from a discussion to an argument to two people trying to hit each other over the head without getting in trouble - and this has reached that point. ""I went to the grade school the other day to pick up my daughter. Over by the playground 2 first grade boys were sitting across from each other and taking turns poking each other with sticks. Sometimes they looked like it hurt, other times they were giggling about it."" So now weve gone from a shotage of Armor for humvees to rocket ships to dropping the A-Bomb. Whats next the cure for cancer Recess is over kids time to back to class. R.I.P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #239 December 16, 2004 QuoteEngineers design and test products that end up being recalled for safety reasons or defective designs all the time. Get real. Remeber the Pinto. Engineers tested it and showed it had a problem. MANAGEMENT overrode the engineers and put it into production. Engineers said not to launch the Challenger. Overrridden by management. Boom. The spacecraft that recently crashed due to an upside down switch was properly designed and improperly built. There was a Mars spacecraft that crashed due to unit conversion problems - that was also a management failure to properly coordinate the teams working for different companies. The King's Bridge (Melbourne, Australia) fell down because the purchasing department ordered the wrong grade of steel. Management error. If you dig deep enough you find many product failures come from management and production errors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #240 December 16, 2004 Quote Remeber the Pinto. Engineers tested it and showed it had a problem. MANAGEMENT overrode the engineers and put it into production.management Engineers said not to launch the Challenger. Overrridden by management. Boom.management The spacecraft that recently crashed due to an upside down switch was properly designed and improperly built.tech mistake There was a Mars spacecraft that crashed due to unit conversion problems - that was also a management failure to properly coordinate the teams working for different companies. sounds less like a management error than individual contributors The King's Bridge (Melbourne, Australia) fell down because the purchasing department ordered the wrong grade of steel. Management error.sounds more like a purchaser's error unless you mean the puchasing manager who signed off the req, even then,,.... .... It's also important to differentiate between technical program management and people management. A good manager takes care of his people and the people take care of the technical. It's also very easy to take any individual's mistake and then push it to "management" whatever that means. It's a lazy way to pass the buck. "Management" means different things in different organizations so a blanket assignment to the category is pointless. Many companies (big ones anyway) have trouble defining ownership, so then blame is also difficult. results in a lot of finger pointing.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #241 December 16, 2004 QuoteQuote Remeber the Pinto. Engineers tested it and showed it had a problem. MANAGEMENT overrode the engineers and put it into production.management Engineers said not to launch the Challenger. Overrridden by management. Boom.management The spacecraft that recently crashed due to an upside down switch was properly designed and improperly built.tech mistake There was a Mars spacecraft that crashed due to unit conversion problems - that was also a management failure to properly coordinate the teams working for different companies. sounds less like a management error than individual contributors The King's Bridge (Melbourne, Australia) fell down because the purchasing department ordered the wrong grade of steel. Management error.sounds more like a purchaser's error unless you mean the puchasing manager who signed off the req, even then,,.... .... It's also important to differentiate between technical program management and people management. A good manager takes care of his people and the people take care of the technical. It's also very easy to take any individual's mistake and then push it to "management" whatever that means. It's a lazy way to pass the buck. "Management" means different things in different organizations so a blanket assignment to the category is pointless. Many companies (big ones anyway) have trouble defining ownership, so then blame is also difficult. results in a lot of finger pointing.... IIRC the fabricators never tested the steel for the Kings Road Bridge as they were supposed to (they would have discovered that it was brittle if they had), and the welders were not supervised and welded some parts in an incorrect sequence. 7 of 8 critical welds failed. management, definitely. The rebuilt bridge, to the original design, still stands.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #242 December 16, 2004 QuoteIIRC the fabricators never tested the steel for the Kings Road Bridge as they were supposed to (they would have discovered that it was brittle if they had), Oh so your supposed to do a real world test on some things before you use them, not just trust the guys doing the math and mixing? Who would have thought."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #243 December 16, 2004 Quote Oh so your supposed to do a real world test on some things before you use them, not just trust the guys doing the math and mixing? Yes, Ron, it is desireable to verify that the proper materials are being used. Not all steel is created equal, so it behooves builders to make sure they are using the right stuff, so, they should perform a test... ...designed by a competent engineer Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #244 December 16, 2004 QuoteIIRC the fabricators never tested the steel for the Kings Road Bridge as they were supposed to (they would have discovered that it was brittle if they had), and the welders were not supervised and welded some parts in an incorrect sequence. 7 of 8 critical welds failed. management, definitely. Like I said, a blanket assignment to 'management' is a pointless exercise - specifically, who was responsible for testing the raw material on receipt? That person is responsible - I have no idea if they were manager, CEO, a tech, or failure analysis engineer. And, who was responsible for the welds? I have no idea if they were 'management', the president of Russia, a tech, or *gasp* the welders. Whatever title, a name of a single individual is assigned, or no one was ever responsible. The lazy just push it up the chain because they can't be bothered to take each person in the chain of command one at a time to figure it out. Check out Adm. Hyman Rickover's statement on responsibility, it pretty well says it clear. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #245 December 16, 2004 Look at that - make enough noise and the DOD can get things done! http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20041216/ts_chicagotrib/pentagonallvehiclesarmoredbyjune Pentagon: All vehicles armored by June QuotePentagon officials, confronting a growing furor that has thrown the military on the defensive, have begun firing back at those questioning whether it has supplied enough armored vehicles in Iraq. As part of the offensive, an Army general said Wednesday the military will spend more than $4 billion to ensure that all U.S. military vehicles in the war zone carry protective armor by next June. QuoteSchwarzkopf, who commanded U.S. forces during the 1991 Persian Gulf war, told MSNBC: "I was angry about the words of the secretary of defense when he laid it all on the Army. I mean, as if he, as the secretary of defense, didn't have anything to do with the Army and the Army was over there doing it themselves, screwing up." And in an opinion piece in Wednesday's Washington Post, Kristol, editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, declared, "These soldiers deserve a better defense secretary than the one we have." Rumsfeld announced recently that President Bush had asked him to remain on the job as Bush's second term begins. On Wednesday, the White House denied that Rumsfeld's departure was under consideration. Quote About 80 percent of the estimated 22,000 Humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites) now carry armor, Speakes said. When the upgrade is completed next year, the Army plans to have a total of 8,000 "up-armored" Humvees, which have armor plating built into the vehicle, and and will use armor kits that are bolted onto vehicles to protect the rest. The Army said that as little as 7 percent of some truck models now in Iraq are armored, while 77 percent of other models are. Army officials first ordered increased armor for Humvees in October 2003, when roadside attacks increased markedly. But there was a lag, they said, due mainly to design, supplier and testing constraints._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #246 December 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteIIRC the fabricators never tested the steel for the Kings Road Bridge as they were supposed to (they would have discovered that it was brittle if they had), and the welders were not supervised and welded some parts in an incorrect sequence. 7 of 8 critical welds failed. management, definitely. Like I said, a blanket assignment to 'management' is a pointless exercise - specifically, who was responsible for testing the raw material on receipt? That person is responsible - I have no idea if they were manager, CEO, a tech, or failure analysis engineer. And, who was responsible for the welds? I have no idea if they were 'management', the president of Russia, a tech, or *gasp* the welders. Whatever title, a name of a single individual is assigned, or no one was ever responsible. The lazy just push it up the chain because they can't be bothered to take each person in the chain of command one at a time to figure it out. Check out Adm. Hyman Rickover's statement on responsibility, it pretty well says it clear. No-one was assigned to test incoming materials, IIRC (it's been a while).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #247 December 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteIIRC the fabricators never tested the steel for the Kings Road Bridge as they were supposed to (they would have discovered that it was brittle if they had), Oh so your supposed to do a real world test on some things before you use them, not just trust the guys doing the math and mixing? Who would have thought. You miss the point again. There was nothing wrong with the design. The grunts fucked up making it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #248 December 16, 2004 QuoteNo-one was assigned to test incoming materials I know PD checks every roll of ZP thouroughly before it is cut. BTW if you are ever in Deland, definitely take a tour of their production area. It is reassuring to know the extent to which they pay attention to detail.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #249 December 17, 2004 now why would they do that?? could it be that someone's life depends on it?? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #250 December 17, 2004 QuoteYou miss the point again. There was nothing wrong with the design. The grunts fucked up making it. Or the engineers fucked up in the making of the steel. And since it was not tested the steel was just as the engineers designed it...Fucked up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
