US Troops using scrap metal for armor

[kallend 2,146]

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You miss the point again. There was nothing wrong with the design. The grunts fucked up making it.

Or the engineers fucked up in the making of the steel.

And since it was not tested the steel was just as the engineers designed it...Fucked up.

Ron, I'm impressed you know so much of the history of the King's Road Bridge collapse. I guess you had to read the Royal Commission Report from cover to cover like I had to.

The steel was exactly what the purchasing agent ordered. The fabricator did NOT order the steel the design engineers specified, they didn't test it on delivery like they were supposed to, and their welders did not follow procedure. There was NOTHING wrong with the design. Incidentally, the fabricator was a US company although the bridge was in Australia.

And it's still shameful that 2 years into a war that Bush started on his own timetable that our troops do not have the equipment they need: equipment that is already designed and tested and for which the factory has production capacity to spare.

RUMSFELD MUST GO. If he had any decency he'd resign. Even Nixon had the decency to resign.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

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Or the engineers fucked up in the making of the steel.

You really don't have any idea what engineers do, do you? They don't make steel. They may in fact come up with the formula for a new alloy, but they don't make the stuff. And if it is not made to their specifications, and is subsequently used without being tested, and something doesn't work right, how is that the fault of the engineer?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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how is that the fault of the engineer?

It's very simple if you like generalizations, it seems to be the 'in' thing on SC -

to every operator, it's the tech's fault
to every tech, it's the engineer's fault
to every engineer, it's the manager's fault
to every manager, it's executive's fault
to every exec, it's Board's fault
to the board, it's the stupid laws from Congress
to Congress, it's an opportunity for a pay raise

some of these groups will occasionally point fingers back downstream, but that is very un-politically correct and a 'career-limiting' move. So the default is to point at the next level (generically, at any level, that could be called 'management' - so it's easy. Much like blaming crime on 'bad things', safe, meaningless, nice way to vent against a faceless concept)

You guys keep arguing with Ron yet the net/net is engineers design and test stuff, and practical testing is usually still needed for QA or practical demonstration. No one is disagreeing with the others, just only hearing enough to continue feeling outraged.

and it is funny and I'm pretty sure some egging on is coming from at least one person just for entertainment value

one thing to think about though - A good engineer in the military leans heavily on the sargeants/chiefs for practical input. A good engineer in the public sector leans heavily on the experience of top notch techs - even during the design phase. A good engineer recognizes practical experience weighs as much as thoery and education in his work. Around my company, the only people who fail to recognize that are the recent college grads (who get over it - quickly) and about 1/4th of the PhD's (who never get over it).

K - If there was not a plan to test the steel to ensure it was to grade (incoming QA), then that was likely the fault of a technical program manager (you are right). If the welds were incorrect, that's a separate issue - the welders screwed up. But still a planning mistake was done if the welds weren't scheduled to be NDT - buck again stops at the TPM, but a good welder will still insist on weld checkout.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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You really don't have any idea what engineers do, do you?

Yes, actually I do.

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They don't make steel. They may in fact come up with the formula for a new alloy, but they don't make the stuff. And if it is not made to their specifications, and is subsequently used without being tested, and something doesn't work right, how is that the fault of the engineer?

The key being IF it was made to their specification and IF their specification was not fucked up.

Vigil was designed by Engineers and it had a recall DUE TO DESIGN.

The Ford Pinto and the Ford Explorer were fucked by DESIGN.

Lets not for get the Corvair a "Car unsafe at any speed" by DESIGN.

Engineers fuck up. They are human. TESTING proves the theory.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,110]

I would remind you that you seem to become incensed when someone with 100 jumps lectures you on swooping or 4-way.

[BikerBabe 0]

Argh.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0783112645/qid=1103302905/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-6183728-1513714?v=glance&s=video&n=507846

Testing in DoD is so fucked up, you have no idea. Unfortunately, the people assigned to operationally evaluate new "stuff" that the DoD buys aren't allowed to do their jobs because of political pressure to get the "stuff' out into the field.

Most new "stuff" just skips that step because some Congressman or General out there wants the thing so bad they can't see the forest for the trees. Look up the story of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle or more recently, the V-22 Osprey to see what I mean...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[kallend 2,146]

How many times have we heard the refrain

"Internal documents obtained by WXYZ News show that engineers had warned of the problem four years ago, but managers...", etc.

That's why Ford paid out $millions on the Pinto.

"In 1977, Mark Dowie of Mother Jones Magazine, using documents in the Center files, published an article reporting the dangers of the fuel tank design, and cited internal Ford Motor Company documents that proved that Ford knew of the weakness in the fuel tank before the vehicle was placed on the market but that a cost/benefit study was done which suggested that it would be "cheaper" for Ford to pay liability for burn deaths and injuries rather than modify the fuel tank to prevent the fires in the first place. Dowie showed that Ford owned a patent on a better designed gas tank at that time, but that cost and styling considerations ruled out any changes in the gas tank design of the Pinto."

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

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K - If there was not a plan to test the steel to ensure it was to grade (incoming QA), then that was likely the fault of a technical program manager (you are right). If the welds were incorrect, that's a separate issue - the welders screwed up. But still a planning mistake was done if the welds weren't scheduled to be NDT - buck again stops at the TPM, but a good welder will still insist on weld checkout.

In the King's Bridge collapse the steel was supposed to be tested on delivery but wasn't. Welds were made in the wrong order. Paint had penetrated cracks in the welds, indicating that the cracks had been there before the bridge was painted.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[rehmwa 2]

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In the King's Bridge collapse the steel was supposed to be tested on delivery but wasn't. Welds were made in the wrong order. Paint had penetrated cracks in the welds, indicating that the cracks had been there before the bridge was painted.

right, so the plan to test was not executed - I'd put that on the TPM unless the test group negligently skipped the test work despite TPM direction. Not doing welds as directed is a separate item,

In the other note to Ron I find it funny that the words "styling considerations" and "Pinto" occur in the same sentence.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[slug 1]

Way off topic dudes see locked thred below about theory vs real world.

As you were

R.I.P.

[kallend 2,146]

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Way off topic dudes see locked thred below about theory vs real world.

As you were

R.I.P.

Is a locked thread a good example to follow? This thread han't been locked.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[slug 1]

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Way off topic dudes see locked thred below about theory vs real world.

As you were

R.I.P.

Is a locked thread a good example to follow? This thread han't been locked.

Maybe and thats final

The thread was locked by Quade. I started it in a attempt to give someone the oppurtunity to move all the off topic stuff in this thread to another one.

This topic of this thread was US troops using scrap medal for armor it hasn't been locked offically but it's no longer the topic of this thread.

IOW it's been unoffically locked by smothering it with off topic stuff.

Check out the tittle of the locked thread and the majority of the posts in this thread.

Quades the man, so don't mind me do your thing in this off topic thread.

Or is the majority of the stuff you've been discusssing on topic?

As you were

R.i.P.