Why call yourself (anything) American?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Then why do they bitch when they think they are being treated differently?

well, let's see. I like to dress in a way that makes me stand out from the others in my corporate environment. I spike my hair and have highlights in them, something that certainly sets me apart in this bastion of the old boys club.

If they treat me differently because of that, I would be slightly pissed and prob bitch about it too.

[Ron 10]

Quote

well, let's see. I like to dress in a way that makes me stand out from the others in my corporate environment. I spike my hair and have highlights in them, something that certainly sets me apart in this bastion of the old boys club.

If they treat me differently because of that, I would be slightly pissed and prob bitch about it too.

So, you CAUSE the difference, REVEL in it. But want to bitch about it?

See that makes no sense to me.

If I am speeding and get a ticket, I don't blame the cop.

If I tell co-workers that I skydive, and they treat me like an idiot...I asked for it.

If I tell people I was military and want to call me a "storm trooper" I asked for it.

In all these cases I don't let it bother me. If it was something I caused, or encouraged...Its my fault.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

So, you CAUSE the difference, REVEL in it. But want to bitch about it?

See that makes no sense to me.

If I am speeding and get a ticket, I don't blame the cop.

If I tell co-workers that I skydive, and they treat me like an idiot...I asked for it.

If I tell people I was military and want to call me a "storm trooper" I asked for it.

In all these cases I don't let it bother me. If it was something I caused, or encouraged...Its my fault.

and what if you are kept from holding any job, living in a house, dricing a car or riding on public transportation because you have a certain hair colour? You would still just shrugg your shoulders and say ohh well, my fault?

[wmw999 2,587]

Quote

and what if you are kept from holding any job, living in a house, dricing a car or riding on public transportation because you have a certain hair colour? You would still just shrugg your shoulders and say ohh well, my fault?

I have a strong feeling that's exactly what Ron would say. He's pretty up front about taking consequences for actions he takes.

If part of a job is meeting with the public, then the employer really has a right to make sure that those employees are ones that the public would be comfortable dealing with. Once enough good employees aren't willing to work for an employer, then their standards will change. Look at pants for women, no jackets for men, etc.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

I think people like to distinguish themselves form the norm. They like to indicate they are different

Then why do they bitch when they think they are being treated differently?

I laugh because it's so true.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I have a strong feeling that's exactly what Ron would say. He's pretty up front about taking consequences for actions he takes.

If part of a job is meeting with the public, then the employer really has a right to make sure that those employees are ones that the public would be comfortable dealing with. Once enough good employees aren't willing to work for an employer, then their standards will change. Look at pants for women, no jackets for men, etc.

Then I am assuming he would have no problem with a skydiver not being allowed to fly on a commercial airline.

Or people with an IQ below 100 being put in camps, kept away from the regular population so that there were no stupid people around?

Or a company not hiring black people because it doesn't fit with the marketing vision of the product?

I could go on and on and on?

The difference is whether or not it is effectively communicated. I have no problem with a company stating that they refuse to hire black people, because they would have to deal with the consequences.

I do have a problem with not openly stating those rules, yet privately adhering to them.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Or people with an IQ below 100 being put in camps, kept away from the regular population so that there were no stupid people around

You've been sneaking a peak at my manifesto I see!!!!

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 10]

Quote

and what if you are kept from holding any job, living in a house, dricing a car or riding on public transportation because you have a certain hair colour? You would still just shrugg your shoulders and say ohh well, my fault?

Hair color that I chose like neon green, or a normal natural color?

Cause my current job I am not allowed to have neon hair. If I show up for a day with neon hair...I could get away with it as a joke. If I showed up for a week, I would have to explain, and they would fire me if I didn't change it. For that reason I have not dyed my hair some crazy color when others at the DZ are. Others however work in industries that allow that, I don't.

So If I choose to dye my hair neon green...Then I also choose to deal with the actions of that choice. Even if that means getting fired.

My prior employer made me get a specific hair cut...It was refered to as a "high and tight". If I didn't, I did pushups, and pulled duty without extra pay on the weekend. I also choose to have that job and all the BS that went with it.

So if I could not have green hair...I would not dye my hair green, or I would and deal with the fall out of it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Hair color that I chose like neon green, or a normal natural color?

Normal natural hair colour. Let's say your employer decided to fire you since you did not have blond hair and blue eyes. You have the option of dying your hair blond and wearing blue contact lenses. Would you just shrug your shoulders and do it? Or if you refuse to, would you just let yourself get fired and not say anything about it?

[Ron 10]

Quote

Normal natural hair colour. Let's say your employer decided to fire you since you did not have blond hair and blue eyes. You have the option of dying your hair blond and wearing blue contact lenses. Would you just shrug your shoulders and do it? Or if you refuse to, would you just let yourself get fired and not say anything about it?

I was in the military, I had to have a certain hair cut or I was in trouble. To sever in the Honor Guard I had to be at least 6 feet tall, to serve on the DMZ in Korea I had to be 6 feet tall.

I was not 6 feet tall, so I didn't serve in the Honor Gaurd or the DMZ. I didn't cry about it. I found another job.

Why don't we see fat Hooters girls?
Fat chicks don't get jobs there. Is that fair?
Why can't I get a United Negro College Fund scholorship? Is that fair? Why does anyone miss out an opportunity cause of race, (That includes both rascism AND affermative action)....Are those fair?

Don't like the hiring practaces of your job? Don't work there. If I wanted neon green hair, I could teach AFF, not work for a Fortune 100 Company in a professional job.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

Then I am assuming he would have no problem with a skydiver not being allowed to fly on a commercial airline.

I would have a problem with that, but I don't tend to run on the plane with my rig and ask how to open the door in flight....If I did and was kicked off, I would not cry about it.

Quote

Or people with an IQ below 100 being put in camps, kept away from the regular population so that there were no stupid people around?

That would be a violation of human rights. And predjiduce against a trait that a person can't control....Now if you asked me if I would round up all the criminals and put them in camps...I would say great idea. Treating someone based on the way they ACT is ok.

Acting one way and then bitching about being treated differently for it is silly.

Quote

Or a company not hiring black people because it doesn't fit with the marketing vision of the product?

I disagree with that. However, if it was a professional job and the guy showed up ACTING like an Original Gangster with inaproprite drees and maners, I would not care if they were black or white...I would not hire them if they didn'f fit into the professional image of the company.

I treat people by how they ACT, not the color of their skin.

Quote

The difference is whether or not it is effectively communicated. I have no problem with a company stating that they refuse to hire black people, because they would have to deal with the consequences.

I do have a problem with not openly stating those rules, yet privately adhering to them.

I however HAVE a problem with a company hiring based on race...I don't have a problem based on how the person acts.

What I have a problem with is a guy that walks into my office for a job and he is dressed like he woke up under a bus and smells bad. Then when he does not get the job claims I didn't hire him due to (Blank) racial reason....

It has nothing to do anout race, it has to do with how they act.

If I went to work in tye dye pants with a boogie "T" shirt, Even on friday, I'd get written up...do it a bunch more and I'd be gone.

I don't have a problem with that, and if I do, I can get another job.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I however HAVE a problem with a company hiring based on race...I don't have a problem based on how the person acts.

What I have a problem with is a guy that walks into my office for a job and he is dressed like he woke up under a bus and smells bad. Then when he does not get the job claims I didn't hire him due to (Blank) racial reason....

It has nothing to do anout race, it has to do with how they act.

If I went to work in tye dye pants with a boogie "T" shirt, Even on friday, I'd get written up...do it a bunch more and I'd be gone.

I don't have a problem with that, and if I do, I can get another job.

and I think with that we agree with eachother based on principle.

[Ron 10]

Quote

and I think with that we agree with eachother based on principle.

Then maybe you can explain to me (Which is why I started this thread) something I just don't get.

Why do people act differently, but then bitch about it when they get treated differently?

That I don't understand.

I have said it before, I dont see colors in people, I see actions. My parents were not that way, I was not as a kid, but I am now.

When I like/don't like someone it is based on their actions, not the way they look. My best friends are 1 over 50, 1 from Peru, 1 from Sweden, 1 long hair tree hugging hippy freak in Nocal. NONE of them are like me in anyway. THATS WHY I LIKE THEM.

But each person is who they are and they don't blame anyone for how they are treated if they acted ina way to bring it onto them.

In that we are the same.

I don't see how someone can TRY to be different, then bitch about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Then maybe you can explain to me (Which is why I started this thread) something I just don't get.

Why do people act differently, but then bitch about it when they get treated differently?

That I don't understand.

I have said it before, I dont see colors in people, I see actions. My parents were not that way, I was not as a kid, but I am now.

When I like/don't like someone it is based on their actions, not the way they look. My best friends are 1 over 50, 1 from Peru, 1 from Sweden, 1 long hair tree hugging hippy freak in Nocal. NONE of them are like me in anyway. THATS WHY I LIKE THEM.

But each person is who they are and they don't blame anyone for how they are treated if they acted ina way to bring it onto them.

In that we are the same.

I don't see how someone can TRY to be different, then bitch about it.

That is what I was trying to point out with the extreme examples. It all depends on the degree of differences.

If I get fired because I choose to have neon green hair, I can accept that.

If I get fired because I chose to dye my hair a natural blond, I would have an issue with that.

[Ron 10]

Quote

That is what I was trying to point out with the extreme examples. It all depends on the degree of differences.

If I get fired because I choose to have neon green hair, I can accept that.

If I get fired because I chose to dye my hair a natural blond, I would have an issue with that.

Ok so you don't hire a fat chick to work at Hooters....Is that OK?

How about I don't hire a Mexican guy that can't speak English very well to work with my customers on the Phone? Is that OK?

How about we don't hire a Black kid that calls everyone "Gmoney" and modifies his dress so much that he looks like he just stepped out of the Gangland reunion to work in our retail store...Is that OK, or is it racist?

Now this is a REAL case I had. I had a Black kid that came to work wearing a "Malcom X" hat. Company policy is that you can wear three things for head gear.

1. The official Uniform hat, or cold weather cap.
2. Any Black or Dark Blue cap with NO logos.
3. Company related caps if approved by mamagment. (such as a charity we support).

I told him he could not wear that cap at work. He called me a racist and took me to Human Resources. I didn't get in trouble due to following company policy.

When those Africa Medalions were the rage I had guys show up to work with those. I told them they could not wear them. The reasons were they were large and hung low enough to be a snag hazzard. Company policy states that NO jewelery will be worn at work other than a wedding band/engagement ring. Now I let my EE's wear necklesses if I could not see them/they could not get snaged. Plus not one neckless I have ever seen would not break if caught on a piece of equipment. They were out of sight and not a danger.

These medalions (That had a pocket for condoms or other "Stuff"(drugs)) were on a long black braided ROPE that would not break.

PLUS is was racial in nature.

I was called a racist, and taken to Human Resources. This time I did get in trouble since I had taken my perogative and allowed jewlery other than the standard company line.

They did have to remove them basied on it being racial, against company policy AND UNSAFE.

But I had to make EVERYONE remove all jewelery from then on. (Except me...gotta love policy huh?)

These guys bitched about me till they left my area, anything I did to them was a trip to Human Resources about me being a racist.

The didnt show up on time and I wrote them up? Trip to Human Resources.

Didn't show up for work and I wrote them up? Human Resources.

Didn't do their job and I wrote them up?...yep Human Resources.

These guys I don't think ever really understood that it was performance, not personal.

Act different, and you will treated differntly. Don't cry about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I have certianly seen fat chicks at hooters.

I would think proficient English is part of the job requirements.

If your retail store has a dresscode, he will have to abide by it as a job requirement.

Quote

This time I did get in trouble since I had taken my perogative and allowed jewlery other than the standard company line.

I think you answer yourself there.

The trick to good management is getting those who don't like you to like working for you.

[rehmwa 2]

On a personal level, I know of many more incidences like Ron's (misuse of a well intended policy by an employee) than the other (true racism/etc against an employee addressed by the well intentioned policy).

However, abuse of a policy by various employees with obnoxious axes to grind or chips on their shoulders are usually much more visible and discussed than true issues so I don't draw any conclusion from personal observations in this area - HR would be the ones to do that. But all the companies I've worked for had strong rules in the area and bent over backwards to try and do the right thing, in a private manner, with real claims without being overwhelmed by false claims - which are constant and many.

It still comes down to identifying the individual managers who are blatant in bias and replacing or 'recalibrating' them rather than some blanket issue with 'companies' as a whole.

On the title subject - I'm just plain an American - not some obnoxious animal breeding experiment requiring tracing my bloodlines to some place that isn't anything like it is today. I choose to live on my own behavior, not revel in or complain about the ancestors. I can't take credit for anything they did and I certainly can't go back in time (yet) and change anything they did either.

I think people hyphenate because they expect some kind of payoff from doing - either respect, or an excuse for failure, or a feeling or whatever. It could be positive or negative, but in the long term I think it's divisive and leads to stereotyping.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I have certianly seen fat chicks at hooters.

And that is funny. Right along the lines that spandex is privilege, not a right. Also, what's with the belly shirts nowadays. That's also wrong for about 75% of the wearers.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

It's not so much the belly shirts as it is the low waists on pants. Personally, I'm in the more is better camp. I can deal with averting my gaze from those who shouldn't be waaring them if it means more opportunities to gawk at those who should. But, then, I'm sure it's not suprise that I'm a degenerate pervert.

[rehmwa 2]

No, I understand your position and think I can live with that procedure. "Degenerate pervert" isn't that a half truth?

But sometimes it's hard to avert your gaze from an accident on the road. Same goes for something in terms of exposed overhanging belly with a gross BB piercing being pushed out by fat.

(did I get the gag reflex on that one?)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

Quote

I have certianly seen fat chicks at hooters.

I'm talking Aunt Bertha fat, not "plump".

Quote

The trick to good management is getting those who don't like you to like working for you.

I know the tricks...I had 30 people that loved working for me. I had three over that year at that same place that didn't....BTW They don't work for the company anymore, and I still do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,587]

Quote

I know of many more incidences like Ron's (misuse of a well intended policy by an employee) than the other (true racism/etc against an employee addressed by the well intentioned policy).

On an individual case-by-case basis, the same for me. However, I've been in situations where I see an overall atmosphere that favors skills more likely to have been emphasized by the parents of children of one cultural or ethnic group over others. Other departments with similar (or the same) job don't have those same conditions, and minorities are more common, and more successful.

It's not that the people are trying to discriminate; it's just that they KNOW what success looks like, and it looks just like them, and the people they grew up with.

It's seen when many important facts are passed along in the men's changing room at the golf course, or in the aerobics class at the Y.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[champu 1]

I think the hypenation cheapens the idea of being an American, and equates the United States to nothing more than a 6,000,000 sq mi land mass.

Being able to embrace the United States as your home without leaving your culture behind is supposed to be one of her key features.

I think right now we're at a point where we've fucked with it too much. Affermative action that isn't implemented sensibly, overly-specific HR policies that get abused, and efforts to be politically correct that have drifted beyond the bounds of reality.

I saw the newest cover for The Game of LIFE and couldn't help but laugh, we have what appears to be a white man, with a black wife who've got asian and mexican kids? Are we even being serious anymore?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I agree... IMO the hyphenated American syndrome is counterproductive, and harmful to our society.

J

I agree with this about half the time. When referring to one's own ethnic heritage, it doesn't bother me. When it's building a demographic it still doesn't bother me. When it gets used in political settings it starts getting weird.

I think all US citizens are all "Americans" regardless of heritage.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Quote

Why call yourself (anything) American?

Because the system gives material benefits to those who do. It's a purely mercenary act.