bertusgeert 1 #1 December 8, 2004 Had to write an english 102 paper and was up all night... now i'm tried, agro, and I wanna argue.... --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #2 December 8, 2004 Thanks for that nice summary of the history of South Africa. It's interesting reading. I think that those long references in the text interfere with the readability - I prefer superscript footnote reference numbers. Good writing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,136 #3 December 8, 2004 Quote I think that those long references in the text interfere with the readability - I prefer superscript footnote reference numbers. Good writing! That is almost certainly the standard citation style for the discipline. Most professors require it because it's good practice in writing for publication in peer-reviewed research journals where the style is mandatory.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #4 December 8, 2004 I think your viewpoint is horribly skewed by you being white. This "slipping" during the 1st 4 years of freedom occured simply because the countries available resources were being used by the entire nation - and not the white 20%. Argue away. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #5 December 9, 2004 QuoteI think your viewpoint is horribly skewed by you being white. This "slipping" during the 1st 4 years of freedom occured simply because the countries available resources were being used by the entire nation - and not the white 20%. Argue away. t Interesting, I havent thought of it that way, but I have to disagree. Althought that would have a noticible effect on the economy, we both know of all the ridiculous legislations that have been passed (such as my two examples). We also know of all the people who were put in government simply because they were black. Brothers hook brothers up. Whites did it, and now the blacks are doing it. It is FACT that this is happening, I directly saw what happened to the company my dad worked for. What then do you think about the links between their embedded black beliefs and trying to run the country today? I mean Mbeki goes to the beach to collect sea water from their ritualistic spot for his moms upset stomach, and he was even found to grow pot in his own house! THE PRESIDENT! Why else would the country be seeing its ass as compared to 15 years ago? For instance, the school districts were just taken over by the government, the parents on the board now have no more direct say in their childrens education, the local schoolboards are worth jack. Entrants into many upper level schools in south africa are now selected on a basis of their skin color. If the area has 30% white and 70% black, then the school has to represent that statistic, no matter if 50% of the best entrants were white. Thats just STUPID. It is now required that if a high school student lacks to answer a question on his test, he still has to receive at least 20% for that question. It is obvious what the government is trying to do. We all know it. Although it might seem to bring more black people into higher education, it dumbs down the entire level of the country. South African degrees actually meant something back in the day. South Africa presented incridible mental capacity, whether black or white. That has all gone to crap now. Why? Why is my viewpoint skewed because of my skin color? I try to see things as objective as I can, but unfortunately the facts remain. (Hey tonto, i apreciate you giving me your point of view man, i dont know anyone else who opposes my point of view. I drastically need to see the other side of the issue as well) oh - and those resources being used...yeah... they are being used very well I assure you. jacob zuma recently used a private governmental jet to fly him and 8 friends around the country for 7 days, spending 11milllion on their trip. When asked about the purpose of their trip, he could not state a single job related issue that was approached or discussed. MAny MANY MANY more examples of misspent funds exist, anywhere from national levels all the way down to every one of those bankrupt municipalities. - and who said i'm white? I'm indian... --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #6 December 9, 2004 Quote Why is my viewpoint skewed because of my skin color? I try to see things as objective as I can, but unfortunately the facts remain. Your paper certainly makes for interesting reading. However, perceptions, opinions and feelings do not equate to facts. You state several times that most crimes are racially motivated. This simply is not true. 70 -80% of violent crime (as opposed to so-called white-collar crime) in this country is 'black on black', and is 'economics' driven. I agree that our crime rates are of the highest in the world, but by suggesting crime is racially motivated one would deduce that the solution is also a racial one, and with that I strongly disagree. In my opinion the solution is two-fold (at the risk of over-simplification):- 1. Spreading the wealth. Start by the lifting of our draconian labour laws, which are harming the very people they were intended to help. Get people working and earning money. Stop government spending on ridiculously expensive arms-deals, presidential aircraft, cronyism, corruption etc and get that money to the people in the form of jobs, social grants, reduced taxes and so on. 2. Get our judicial system working properly at all levels. Follow the 'zero tollerance' policy. Root out corruption. Pay the cops real money. Train more policeman. Use them properly. Streamline the courts. As a matter of interest, in yesterday's The Citizen I read an article on how the SA Police Service has spent R45 million rand on security companies - FOR PROTECTING POLICE STATIONS AND BUILDINGS. In today's edition there is an article about a R30 million rand medical aid fraud scam by prison officials. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #7 December 9, 2004 I find it disturbing that you quote James A Mitchener - a writer of fiction - for the 1st 300 years of your historical overview. Was this from "The Covenent?" Quotewe both know of all the ridiculous legislations that have been passed Ridiculous for you. This is culture milleniums old for the majority of our country - and our voters. That's what happens in a democracy. The people shall govern. QuoteWe also know of all the people who were put in government simply because they were black. Brothers hook brothers up. Whites did it, and now the blacks are doing it. So the status quo is maintained. In the Apartheid years there was "Job Reservation" Now there is "Afirmative Action" Why does that upset you so? People who are good at what they do will rise to the top. It's always been the case. At least now we hear about corruption, nepotism etc, thanks to our free press - something we never had under decades of "State of emergency" conditions. QuoteWhat then do you think about the links between their embedded black beliefs and trying to run the country today? I think it's fine. I see the same thing in India, China, Japan and even the UK where people are accepting that the past has much to offer. It doesn't mean that "western" medicine is wrong. There are homeopaths in every modern civilisation. You're not forced to go to a traditional healer. My medical aid has a savings facility that I can use for cosmetic dentistry, psycology, physiotherapy or a traditional healer if I so choose. QuoteWhy else would the country be seeing its ass as compared to 15 years ago? The country is not "seeing its ass." The fact that you think it is points directly to your prejudice. We are in the longest phase of sustained ecconomic growth since the 2nd world war. Our ecconomy is growing at 5.9% per annum. Our currency improved more against the dollar in 2003 than ANY OTHER CURRENCY. Sure - middle class people may not have it as good as when four out of five people waited on them hand and foot - but South Africans - all of us - are better off than we were before democracy. QuoteFor instance, the school districts were just taken over by the government, the parents on the board now have no more direct say in their childrens education, the local schoolboards are worth jack. And long may it be so. I'm a business systems manager, not an educator. I'm happy to leave the education of my children up to proffesionals, not paranoid, ignorant, racist parents panicing about their paranoid future. QuoteEntrants into many upper level schools in south africa are now selected on a basis of their skin color. If the area has 30% white and 70% black, then the school has to represent that statistic, no matter if 50% of the best entrants were white. Thats just STUPID. And that's there to destroy "ecconomic apartheid" where "private" (read "white") schools get to choose who to accept as students. QuoteIt is now required that if a high school student lacks to answer a question on his test, he still has to receive at least 20% for that question. Really? Show me where. QuoteIt is obvious what the government is trying to do. We all know it. Not all of us. You perhaps. QuoteAlthough it might seem to bring more black people into higher education, it dumbs down the entire level of the country. When 20% of the country enjoys an artificially high standard of living for 100's of years - at the expense of 80% of the country - and you need to make things equal - the high side is going to slip. What's important is that the 80% are now allowed to study in English - an international language - and are allowed to study mathematics, science, biology etc and dream of a career worth having - rather than a future as miners or domestic servants. This is a 10 year old democracy. I think we're doing better than many, many countries considering our youth. QuoteSouth African degrees actually meant something back in the day. South Africa presented incridible mental capacity, whether black or white. That has all gone to crap now. Why? South African degrees meant what? "Back in the day?" The days of rioting, of death, of conscription, of detention without trial, of secret police making people "disapear?" You miss all that - and tell me your opinion on what a degree means? QuoteWhy is my viewpoint skewed because of my skin color? I try to see things as objective as I can, but unfortunately the facts remain. There is little objectivity in your point of view. It can be summed up as "Whites were kings and this was ok nomatter what. Now blacks are free and they're doing what they want to do with their country and I don't like it. Quote(Hey tonto, i apreciate you giving me your point of view man, i dont know anyone else who opposes my point of view. I drastically need to see the other side of the issue as well) I'll give everyone my point of view. At least I know that BOSS (the Bureau of State Security) isn't going to come knocking on my door. Quoteoh - and those resources being used...yeah... they are being used very well I assure you. jacob zuma recently used a private governmental jet to fly him and 8 friends around the country for 7 days, spending 11milllion on their trip. When asked about the purpose of their trip, he could not state a single job related issue that was approached or discussed. MAny MANY MANY more examples of misspent funds exist, anywhere from national levels all the way down to every one of those bankrupt municipalities. And if you've been watching the news you'll see he's also been taking bribes WRT the arms deal. Do you remember Connie Mulder and the "Information Scandal" that caused the resignation of Prime Minister B J Vorster? Or Watergate? Nothing new about corruption in politics. Quote- and who said i'm white? I'm indian... Then stop behaving like such a coconut and support the country of your birth as it goes through change. After all - change is life's only certainty. We should embrace it, not lament the loss of the good old days like those fat old men in Safari suits with an Aluminium comb in their sock, a 3 litre Ford, a 2 litre Coke and a 1 litre Brandy at their side. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #9 December 9, 2004 QuoteI find it disturbing that you quote James A Mitchener - a writer of fiction - for the 1st 300 years of your historical overview. Michener uses some fictional *characters* in his stories, but his portrayals of historical events are dead-on accurate, from what I've read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #10 December 9, 2004 Quotehis portrayals of historical events are dead-on accurate, from what I've read. Really? Were you there? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #11 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuotehis portrayals of historical events are dead-on accurate, from what I've read. Really? Were you there? Is that your idea of a substantive counter-argument? I said; "from what I've read", not; "from what I have experienced". Have you got that now? This means that I've read some of Michener's books, and also other books on the same subject, including history textbooks. And Michener's portrayal of history matches what I've read from those other sources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #12 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuotehis portrayals of historical events are dead-on accurate, from what I've read. Really? Were you there? Is that your idea of a substantive counter-argument? Funny.... I have to say though, tonto always replies in a very logical way, this time wasnt' very sharp though.... Michener tells a story in a way that it is still a story and not a history book. He keeps you into the book by getting you attached to FICTIONAL characters. His historical dates and references are dead on accurate and 100% quotable. THis is what I refered to, not the some issue about the Van Doorns who establsihed Trianon. You see my point.... I am limited on time, and will reply to the rest of your response later. --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
