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IanHarrop

U.S. army deserter seeking refugee status in Canada

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that would be an unlawful order, and soldiers are not required to obey unlawful orders... if you'd been thru basic training even you would have been educated on the difference.



It was me asking the question....and i have been slammed by better people :)
But I have now heard two different answers from two people who have been at least through basic training and according to you should therefor have the basic mental capacity to answer my question.

One gives me the line about an unlawful order, the other says a soldier just should do what he is told.

Question remains, who decides what an unlawful order is. What makes it unlawful? Or is any order coming down the proper chain of command lawful?

I know it might be hard to undstand, but some people do like to learn from time to time.

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The war is not illegal. Good luck trying to get that through a court martial.



So, if a soldier refuses to follow an oder based on him/her claiming it is unlawful it ends up in front of a courtmartial. If the court decides it was lawful, the soldier immediately gets punished for not following the order?

sounds like the system is certainly in favour of just blindly doing what you are told?

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I take back all I said about putting these folks to death and agree that they should be punished in accordance with the UCMJ. Yes, I am a flip-flopper;).
BTW most desserters, peacetime and wartime do less than 5 years in prison.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Question remains, who decides what an unlawful order is. What makes it unlawful? Or is any order coming down the proper chain of command lawful?



The UCMJ and the Code of Conduct. Every soldier is expected to know and understand them... they can always ask their leadership (or other avenue if the leadership IS the problem) for clarification.

As to 'doing what your told' the leaders are expected to follow the exact same standard, and if they are ,then they will not be putting their soldiers in any position where there is a need to question orders.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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So, if a soldier refuses to follow an oder based on him/her claiming it is unlawful it ends up in front of a courtmartial. If the court decides it was lawful, the soldier immediately gets punished for not following the order?



Probably (in the more extreme circumstances).

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sounds like the system is certainly in favour of just blindly doing what you are told?



Not really.

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That side being the U.S in the present war



SH had 12 years to comply and never did. The UN was a bunch of spinless idiots that were lining their pockets with money.

And if the "Insurgents" did't fire, and allowed elections we would already be gone.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Well, we didn't really give Iraqis much of a choice, considering we invaded their homeland. They we're already there.



There is nothing making them fight us...The fastest way for them to get us to leave is to stop fighting and elect who they want to run the country.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I may be wrong but I feel your a UN supporter. So I will use the internationally legal example.

On paper the war in Iraq is legal, weather you agree or not, the US has a UN security council authorization.

If your not a UN supporter I do appalogize.

But the war is legal as far as the UN is concerned and the 2 trials I have heard about in the tirbunal have agreed. (I read about them while i was in Iraq but can't remember if it was Time, or US news and Worl Report but it was a real small blurb in a magazine like that, almost like the ydidn't want you or I to know, but still quilify them selves as fair and unbiased by reporting all sides of the news).

Matt



Do you think it is a shame to support UN?

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True...and I'm sure if some country invaded the US to overthrow Bush and force us to elect new leaders, you'd stay home, right?



If my life was as crappy as the peoples in Iraq...Maybe. But it is one reason I support the 2nd.

Why is that your plan with the midgets?;)
BTW they like to be called Height Challenged-Americans.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The UN was a bunch of spinless idiots that were lining their pockets with money.



together with those american companies who were on that list. However, your administration blacked out those names, so we don't really know who those companies are.....

So let's say Haliburton is on that list, it would have been during Cheney's time there. Does that make him a spinless (sic) idiot too? B|:P

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together with those american companies who were on that list. However, your administration blacked out those names, so we don't really know who those companies are.....

So let's say Haliburton is on that list, it would have been during Cheney's time there. Does that make him a spinless (sic) idiot too?



there is a big difference between a COMPANY that is in business to make money, and an ORGANIZATION that is supposed to be a governing body.

If a public figure is using his position to become rich...He is breaking the law.

If a CEO is running a company to become rich...He is doing a good job.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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there is a big difference between a COMPANY that is in business to make money, and an ORGANIZATION that is supposed to be a governing body.



And there's a big difference between the actions of individual members of an organization and what that organizations goals are.

The UN did not do anything wrong. Individual members did.

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If a CEO is running a company to become rich...He is doing a good job.



Even if he's purposely and illegally setting up offshore shell corporations with the sole purpose of circumventing sanctions designed to insure national security?

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And there's a big difference between the actions of individual members of an organization and what that organizations goals are.

The UN did not do anything wrong. Individual members did.



At least you can admit that.

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Even if he's purposely and illegally setting up offshore shell corporations with the sole purpose of circumventing sanctions designed to insure national security?



1. Got proof?
2. Did he get charged? If so what was the outcome?
3. If nothing or close to nothing, then it seems to not be a big deal huh?

And again HB was one of the few companies that could handle contracts that large.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/24/80648.shtml

Not talking about what HB is doing in Iraq now. Talking about what they were doing pre-war while sanctions were in place. It is not disputed that Halliburton sold equipment to Iraq through foreign subsidiaries while US law prohibited US companies from doing so. So no, he wasn't indicted, because it wasn't illegal.

It's pretty shitty of an American company to deliberately circumvent laws in place for national security reasons. If you think that's not a big deal, fine. But it's not in dispute.

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1. Got proof?
2. Did he get charged? If so what was the outcome?
3. If nothing or close to nothing, then it seems to not be a big deal huh?



What a crock o shit that is.

So if some one got murdered, but nobody got charged since they can't find proof tying one person to the murder......it means the murder wasn't a big deal.

I guess in your world breaking the law is only bad if you get caught.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Got proof?
2. Did he get charged? If so what was the outcome?
3. If nothing or close to nothing, then it seems to not be a big deal huh?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What a crock o shit that is.

So if some one got murdered, but nobody got charged since they can't find proof tying one person to the murder......it means the murder wasn't a big deal.

I guess in your world breaking the law is only bad if you get caught.



No the murder is still a big deal, but I am not going to assume a certain person did it with out PROOF. You however are free to go on a witch hunt.

But I am glad the LAW in the US agrees with me that you can't just punish someone with out proof that THEY did the crime.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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But I am glad the LAW in the US agrees with me that you can't just punish someone with out proof that THEY did the crime.



Unless it is someone who was arrested for armed robbery. I recall you saying something along the lines that if there's video showing someone that looks like the accused robbing a store and shooting the clerk, there shouldn't be a trial, they should just be executed.

Seems there are a bunch of witnesses and documentation here. Not enough for a trial, but with your desire for swift justice for others, seems you might think that it's worth investigating.

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Nice try...I said if no one presses charges, or the courts don't convict, or there is now penalty, then its not a big deal...

Nice try to twist my words..but you failed...again.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Unless it is someone who was arrested for armed robbery. I recall you saying something along the lines that if there's video showing someone that looks like the accused robbing a store and shooting the clerk, there shouldn't be a trial, they should just be executed.



Um I said video, eye witnesses and the guy was arrested walking out of the store with the gun that was used.

Nice try.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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