U.S. army deserter seeking refugee status in Canada

[pajarito 0]

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If your CIC so orders, what makes that order any more illegal then the order to invade Iraq?

Let's say that the women and children do have to fire first.

Civilians, women, and children are generally considered to be non-combatants. However, it's hard to tell many times when the enemy we're fighting now doesn't wear any type of uniform. As Ron said, non-combatants aren't legal to target and any order to do so would be illegal. It would be my responsibility not to follow it. However, as soon as that woman or young person picks up a weapon and threatens my life or the lives of any of my men, they become a combatant in that instant and would legally be treated as such.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Civilians, women, and children are generally considered to be non-combatants. However, it's hard to tell many times when the enemy we're fighting now doesn't wear any type of uniform. As Ron said, non-combatants aren't legal to target and any order to do so would be illegal. It would be my responsibility not to follow it. However, as soon as that woman or young person picks up a weapon and threatens my life or the lives of any of my men, they become a combatant in that instant and would legally be treated as such.

Probably gave a bad example. But if some one truly has a major objection to the order given. As in this case where many international law experts have indicated that this war is illegal. What would happen if a soldier would claim it is an illegal order to go into Iraq?

[Guest]

We've been through this before.

GIs don't get to choose which fights they'll be in.

If you don't like the Army's purpose - don't enlist.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[freethefly 6]

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I will never say any bad about those who is in frontline, this is adressed to your goverment. If someone do not want to go, they should be able to serve other places!

Well then no one would ever fight a war.


Would it not be great if everyone on both sides did this!!!!
Old Hippy saying- What if they threw a war and nobody showed up?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[pajarito 0]

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Probably gave a bad example. But if some one truly has a major objection to the order given. As in this case where many international law experts have indicated that this war is illegal. What would happen if a soldier would claim it is an illegal order to go into Iraq?

I'm sure Saddam Hussein and the former Bathists think the war is illegal.

[434 2]

I hope you do not need to serve shoulder to shoulder with him! And I am sure you would trust him to save your life when it get hot around you

[JctRsp 0]

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in this case where many international law experts have indicated that this war is illegal.

I keep seeing people claiming that this war is illegal, but I have yet to see any evidence showing it. To do so, try pulling out the UN Charter and show me exactly how this is an illegal war?
Yes, some people say it is, but other international law experts say it isn't. I can defend both positions using binding treaty and customary international law. I simply don't agree with everyone calling it illegal and not giving their legal explanations.

[AMax 0]

Could you please explain what exactly "legal war" is?

Edit to correct spelling

[mccurley 1]

Draftdogers OK they are making a stand or avoiding being sent to thier possible death in a forgien land. I can agree with both.

Deserters? Send them back! He signed a contract and he took an oath. In addition to that he may have accepted benifts such as an education.

Either way he should be honouring his commitments.
If he hasn't got the balls to honour his commitments except as convienent to him, thern he is not the kind of immagrant Canada should want.

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[billvon 3,111]

>Could you please explain what exactly "legal war" is?

War as defined by the winner of said war.

[JctRsp 0]

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Could you please explain what exactly "legal war" is?

This is really too broad of a question to answer in less than an hour. However, some examples of a legal war are: following the guidance of the UN Security Council, defending your nation, and in the last decade stopping human rights violations (or genocide, etc.) seems to becoming a legitimate reason for war.
Basically, describing a legal war is about as broad of a subject someone could try to answer.

[Ron 10]

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Would it not be great if everyone on both sides did this!!!!
Old Hippy saying- What if they threw a war and nobody showed up?

Hey, I'd love it if BOTH sides didn't show....The problem is one side will always show.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Botellines 0]

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Hey, I'd love it if BOTH sides didn't show....The problem is one side will always show.

That side being the U.S in the present war...

[PhillyKev 0]

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Would it not be great if everyone on both sides did this!!!!
Old Hippy saying- What if they threw a war and nobody showed up?

Hey, I'd love it if BOTH sides didn't show....The problem is one side will always show.

Well, we didn't really give Iraqis much of a choice, considering we invaded their homeland. They we're already there.

[matthewcline 0]

Colledge money can be spent while on active dut yor after it is up to the individual on how he or she works it.

He should have to pay it all back(the collegde fund) and since he is in breach of contract pay back all he earned (base pay, jump pay, Housing, Basic allowence for food, Clothing allowence, and any other money he got for him and his family) at least from whe nhe "claimed" his new status.

Didn't this same fellow already go to Afganistan, then desert?

As a soldier all I keep thinknig about is the 30 other soldiers in his platoon who had counted on him to help watvh their backs and had to deploy with out him and hope his replacement was able to meet the task (he watched their backs against the taliban).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

I may be wrong but I feel your a UN supporter. So I will use the internationally legal example.

On paper the war in Iraq is legal, weather you agree or not, the US has a UN security council authorization.

If your not a UN supporter I do appalogize.

But the war is legal as far as the UN is concerned and the 2 trials I have heard about in the tirbunal have agreed. (I read about them while i was in Iraq but can't remember if it was Time, or US news and Worl Report but it was a real small blurb in a magazine like that, almost like the ydidn't want you or I to know, but still quilify them selves as fair and unbiased by reporting all sides of the news).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[zulu 0]

I concur with the majority about this desserter to be punished. This is what the new "Army of One" is turning into for a percentage of soldiers not fully comprehending the true meaning of "DUTY, GOD, AND COUNTRY!

I actually had a guy in the middle of a FF refuse to fight because he suddenly became a consciences objector. I literally had to disarm another team mate who was hell bent on killing this bastard for such cowardly actions.

The military needs to come up with away to adminster swift punishment for those committing such an offense.

[JctRsp 0]

I think this was in reply to my response (forgive me if I'm wrong), so I'll answer it.
No, I am not a UN supporter. I don't think very highly of the organization at all. But, a great deal of international law comes from the UN Charter, and the best way to present an argument to the majority of the people against the Iraq war is to use the UN. A large percentage of people opposed to the war like the UN, and say that because of the UN, the war is illegal (without actually citing examples). However, I simply take the treaty law and make an argument for the war.

[white_falcon 0]

Quote from Skydekker:

So Ron, question for you.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?


I and NOT Ron, Skydekker, but you are SO wrong with that question.

That is actually the FIRST thing i have seen in this post to incite me. I too was a proud member of the 82nd ABD and I HAVE been on foreign soil, more than once, being shot at.

You sir are TOTALLY out of line! The U S Military / Govt. would NEVER give the order you put out there and I take huge issue with the implication they would.



sorry, had to get that off my chest.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Quote from Skydekker:

So Ron, question for you.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?


I and NOT Ron, Skydekker, but you are SO wrong with that question.

That is actually the FIRST thing i have seen in this post to incite me. I too was a proud member of the 82nd ABD and I HAVE been on foreign soil, more than once, being shot at.

You sir are TOTALLY out of line! The U S Military / Govt. would NEVER give the order you put out there and I take huge issue with the implication they would.

never said they would, so no need to get your knickers in a knot.

The question remains, if a soldier would put forward that he believes the invasion is an illegal order and hence he decides not to follow it....what would happen?

My example was an obvious, but what happens when it becomes not so obvious? Is it driven by public perception, as in, if a perceived majority of people agree with it, it is therefor a legal order?

I have seen enough soldiers say that they will do what their CIC tells them to do. You chime in saying that the CIC would never order anything that isn't completely above board. I wish I could share that sentiment with you, but I don't. I generally don't trust the intentions of anybody in a very powerful position.

[pajarito 0]

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The question remains, if a soldier would put forward that he believes the invasion is an illegal order and hence he decides not to follow it....what would happen?

The soldier doesn’t get to make that kind of choice. He must go where he's told to go and fight who he's told to fight. In reference to legality of the war, the President, his administration, and the majority who voted him back in office all think the war was justified. So do all the countries in our coalition who are fighting alongside us. The soldier refusing to go after he’s already committed is in violation of military law. If a person objects for any reason with the policies or direction of the military, then that person aught not join and take the oath. He has that privilege given that we no longer have a draft.

[Zenister 0]

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He should be returned and the Military should punish him in accordance with UCMJ.

exactly.. no one forced him to join..and there are alot of ditches that need digging in Iraq right now...

dont become a soldier if your not willing to fight...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?

that would be an unlawful order, and soldiers are not required to obey unlawful orders... if you'd been thru basic training even you would have been educated on the difference.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The soldier doesn’t get to make that kind of choice. He must go where he's told to go and fight who he's told to fight.

Then what is this talk about the obligation not to follow an illegal order?

I agree that this guy signed up and we should send him back and he should face his punishment. I am asking out of clarification for myself.

[pajarito 0]

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The soldier doesn’t get to make that kind of choice. He must go where he's told to go and fight who he's told to fight.

Then what is this talk about the obligation not to follow an illegal order?

I agree that this guy signed up and we should send him back and he should face his punishment. I am asking out of clarification for myself.

The war is not illegal. Good luck trying to get that through a court martial.