U.S. army deserter seeking refugee status in Canada

[Ron 10]

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It's more than just a contract. It goes way deeper than that. It's not like a contract that you sign requiring you to pay off your car. It's an oath of allegiance. It's a promise, based on your character, that you'll stand with your fellow countrymen against an enemy. This guy is a coward. Plain and simple. I have no sympathy.

OH, I agree. I did my 3 years in the 82d. In fact I could have gotten out earlier, or stayed in and gotten a med and milked the military. I choose to get out on my ETS.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

Some don't see it that way, though. They have no sense of duty, honor, or loyalty. To them, it is in fact just a contract like the note on their car. They would just as easily default on their country as with their other contracts. They're too focused on that huge Army paycheck to take seriously the possibility that they might actually be called upon to do what they were payed and trained to do.

[billvon 3,114]

>All this does is to reinforce my assertions about small, tiny, infinitesimal neo-con mind.

There are a lot of people bending the rules here to get their slams in. Cut it out - that includes EBS, Tuna, and Juanesky.

[slug 1]

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The problem encountered is what else have you been wrong about? Makes all of your posts in the future shaky at best and needs to be held with a grain of salt.

So you must share an unexpected (for you) kinship with him then.

Blues,
Ian

Affirmative

41
R.I.P

[wmw999 2,587]

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Makes all of your posts in the future shaky at best and needs to be held with a grain of salt

And now we know why so many politicians (including the current administration as a whole) won't admit to being wrong. If you admit it, then you are forever in question. If you just don't admit it, then it never happened, you can't be held accountable, and it's still true.

What a crock of shit.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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There are a lot of people bending the rules here to get their slams in. Cut it out - that includes EBS, Tuna, and Juanesky.

wow, for once Im not included

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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And now we know why so many politicians

You could have left it at that, but you had to add " (including the current administration as a whole) "?

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If you admit it, then you are forever in question. If you just don't admit it, then it never happened, you can't be held accountable, and it's still true.

Admit it or not, making predictions WILL bite you.

Tuna likes to chide in with PK's "Kerry will win in a landslide"...Which I also found funny, and got on him about (When I got unbanned).

But if Bush had lost, I bet PK or someone else would have gotten on Tuna for saying Bush was going to win.

Thats the facts.....Make predictions, expect people to hold them against you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AMax 0]

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Some don't see it that way, though. They have no sense of duty, honor, or loyalty. To them, it is in fact just a contract like the note on their car. They would just as easily default on their country as with their other contracts. They're too focused on that huge Army paycheck to take seriously the possibility that they might actually be called upon to do what they were payed and trained to do.

Here is completely independent opinion (since I'm not US citizen)

I volunteered after first year or college and served my country for two years (getting completely miserable pay check). It was a very tough time but a thought of quitting never crossed my mind and senses of duty, honor, or loyalty were definitely helping and encouraging me.
Do I think this guy is a coward? Hell no. I do not even know him, his history, his background and his believes. His refusal to go isn’t something I would do but at the same time I hate to see when people yell: shoot him or put him in jail. The guy never abandoned his brothers on front lines … period. Examples from WWI and WWII are completely inappropriate here.

P.S. My hat was green to, so bite me ...

[wmw999 2,587]

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But if Bush had lost, I bet PK or someone else would have gotten on Tuna for saying Bush was going to win.

I think there's a difference between making a prediction based on evidence and a bald assertion.

Either way, I agree there would have been some serious crowing had Kerry won; particularly in the direction you mentioned -- I'm afraid that bald assertions with no backup whatsoever do tend to bring out the "told you so" in folks.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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think there's a difference between making a prediction based on evidence and a bald assertion.

Well so PK had "Bad Intel"?

I mean really we all make guesses on the information we have.

PK thought sKerry was gonna win cause he looked out his window.

Tuna thought Bush was gonna win cause he looked at some online sites that had polls.

In both cases I am sure it was more than just that, but only one could be right.

The same thinga bout every issue.

I don't see anyone making assumptions on bald assertion.

Just "Bad intel"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[434 2]

I did my 12 monts mandatory duty in norway, and I am glad they cant send me abroad to fight a war without agree on a contract! I would have and will serve my country if we where attacked, but I would not go abroad to fight a war I did not believe in, and all based on a huge lie. Before you are finished with this war, there will be more deaths than occured in New York 9/11

Who is making money of this war now, and who will make money when/if the country get under control? Who is paying for it? The young Americans who tryed to make a decent living, joining the army for education, wich should have been paid by the goverment in first place! Tax money could have been going for education insted, but hey then you guys would not have a army! Tricky situation!

[rehmwa 2]

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Some don't see it that way, though. They have no sense of duty, honor, or loyalty. To them, it is in fact just a contract like the note on their car.

Not paying your debts, even a car payment, is an issue of honor - if not loyalty or duty - or at least part of self respect. So I don't have an issue with comparing this to any contract. You make a legal promise, you keep it. If you break it, then there are consequences. If this guy is breaking a contract, then he has character issues regardless of his excuses.

Trial and punishment for desertion is already defined by UCMJ, so that should move forward in the system already established.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pajarito 0]

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Some don't see it that way, though. They have no sense of duty, honor, or loyalty. To them, it is in fact just a contract like the note on their car.

Not paying your debts, even a car payment, is an issue of honor - if not loyalty or duty - or at least part of self respect. So I don't have an issue with comparing this to any contract. You make a legal promise, you keep it. If you break it, then there are consequences. If this guy is breaking a contract, then he has character issues regardless of his excuses.

Trial and punishment for desertion is already defined by UCMJ, so that should move forward in the system already established.

I agree. I was just trying to point out that duty to your country is more serious than the other. I'm not saying that a person wouldn't also be a shit bag for not paying his/her bills.

[Ron 10]

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I would have and will serve my country if we where attacked, but I would not go abroad to fight a war I did not believe in

Then you should be willing to face the results of that choice, not run away from them.

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and all based on a huge lie

Prove that.

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Before you are finished with this war, there will be more deaths than occured in New York 9/11

So we should have done nothing? Or maybe the UN should have done something in the prior 12 years?

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The young Americans who tryed to make a decent living, joining the army for education

They join the Army...not the BoyScouts. In the Army you sometimes have to fight. The educaton is a bonus. But if you wnat the money you should be willing to do what you signed up to do.

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wich should have been paid by the goverment in first place!

Your opinion. The US is not socialist.

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Tax money could have been going for education insted, but hey then you guys would not have a army! Tricky situation!

Again your opinion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

So Ron, question for you.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?

[pajarito 0]

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So Ron, question for you.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?

That's a ludicrous example and would be an illegal order. My answer would be no.

[434 2]

You got strong believes! And I am sure you think you are right!

So free school from goverment makes us a socialist automatic? Very clever point from you.

To prove it was a huge lie is not in my hands, it is your goverment to find the proof they need!



The only thing we have learned from history is that everything repeats it self

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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That's a ludicrous example and would be an illegal order. My answer would be no.

If your CIC so orders, what makes that order any more illegal then the order to invade Iraq?

Let's say that the women and children do have to fire first.

[Ron 10]

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So Ron, question for you.

Let's say in your time in the military it was decided that Mexico needed to be invaded and only women and children were to be shot on sight.

Would you have happily gone over and performed your "duty"?

Silly question. That would have been an illegal order. So I would not have to do it. I would refuse to follow that order and face the results that that action would bring.

I would not run like a coward.

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If your CIC so orders, what makes that order any more illegal then the order to invade Iraq?

You are not allowed to shoot unarmed non-combatants.

You still have not shown how the Iraq war was illegal. SH was never in compliance with the resolutions. Thats a fact. If he had WMD or not, SH NEVER complied with the resolution.

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Let's say that the women and children do have to fire first.

In ANY situation where a person (Man, Women, or Child) fires on me, I will return fire in accordance with the ROE.

Even as a Civilain, is someone fires on me I would fire back.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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So free school from goverment makes us a socialist automatic?

No you EXPECTING it is very socialistic.

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To prove it was a huge lie is not in my hands, it is your goverment to find the proof they need!

Well before you call it a lie, you should have proof that it is a lie.

The prson making the claim has to prove it, not the person accused over here.

Innocent till PROVEN guilty.

You have to prove it was a lie, not them prove it was not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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That's a ludicrous example and would be an illegal order. My answer would be no.

In the case that spawned this thread, there is testimony by former senior officers that war crimes are commited daily.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[434 2]

I have to prove your goverment did go to war on false premises? I cant prove that, and neither can your goverment prove they had the proof before the war! So if I was called out abroad, my consience would have told me no!

I will never say any bad about those who is in frontline, this is adressed to your goverment. If someone do not want to go, they should be able to serve other places!

[Ron 10]

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In the case that spawned this thread, there is testimony by former senior officers that war crimes are commited daily.

Then you don't follow those orders. But you just can't say "I'm not going" and expect nothing to be done to you.

If the soldier is correct, then he will not face charges.

My problem with this is that he willing joined, cashed the paychecks, went to school on the military (Read we paid for it), had free health care...But when asked to do the job he signed up to do ran away and tried to hide.

To be honest I would have MUCH less of an issue if he was trying to avoid a draft (Where he did not willingly sign up and take advantage of getting a paycheck), or if he refused to go and took the punishment that entailed.

He signed up. He KNEW what that ment. If he does not want to go...Fine, but he shoudl face UCMJ for that act, not run away.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I have to prove your goverment did go to war on false premises?

Thats how it works over here. You can't just make a claim and have the guy thrown in jail. You have to make a claim, PROVE he did it, then justice is applied.

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I cant prove that

Then why do you say it was illegal if you don't know?

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neither can your goverment prove they had the proof before the war!

Actually they have piles of intel that say he did have WMD's....

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"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country" --Gore, September 23,2003

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."--Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime...now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued decit and his consistant grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" --John F. Kerry, Jan 23, 2003.

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I will never say any bad about those who is in frontline, this is adressed to your goverment. If someone do not want to go, they should be able to serve other places!

Well then no one would ever fight a war.

If he does not want to serve, then he should take the punishment that goes with that choice.

He choose to join the Army. That means abiding by the rules in the Army.
He choose to go AWOL.

He should now stand by his choices.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sabr190 0]

If someone do not want to go, they should be able to serve other places!