Total killed in Iraq U.S. 1244 heroes...

[Zenister 0]

it isnt 'perfectly ok', by OUR standards it is cowardly, dishonorable conduct. But it is a fact of War and particularly this war. It is ignorant to presume that they (their leaders such as they exist) do not understand and exploit the differences in our cultures in exactly the manner that makes it difficult for us to address...

Understanding your enemy is a key factor in being able to defeat them (but we have FAR more we have to accomplish than the simple military 'defeat' in order to have achieved anything.....)

we have made several major mistakes in this conflict so far, one huge ongoing error is the pretense that we do not have to fight "for hearts and minds" (even if/when it leaves us at a significant tactical disadvantage) and the more we continue with heavy handed tactics that play perfectly into to the propaganda they use to recruit, the more basically ignorant and misguided, but just as sincere (and perhaps more so as it is THEIR COUNTRY) soldiers we create to struggle for what they believe is right.

just as you paint their actions with simplistic "evil" motivations, they do the same thing to ours, and every time we play into the hands of the zealots, helps convince those on the edge, and alienates the moderates...

I'm not mistaking you two at all. I have the greatest respect for the work Josh is doing, and i do not question that he and the majority of our soldiers are doing the absolute best they can.. I (and a great many others, both in the military and out) DO question our overall strategy and approach as dictated by the CIVILIAN leadership....

what you seem to fail to grasp is the 'rightness' of a cause (as determined by history, always written by the victors) has NOTHING to do with heroism.. there are genuine heroes on the opposing side, just as their were a great many genuine hero's serving the Nazi party and even in ranking positions in the SS.. if you dont believe so you need a better education in history, war and what really occurs in the conduct of it....dont mistake the soldier for the politicians that pull the strings....

"Hero" is determined by elements and character of the individuals involved and the actions, circumstance and sincerity of belief by that individual, not by who's culture ultimately triumphs...

seeing the other side is CRITICAL to being able to predict and prevent surprises, to being able to plan and reach an eventual compromise that the moderate majority (and the majority of ANY population falls in the middle of the belief, not the edges) will agree to and support... we are alienating that majority, even inside the individual tribal and religious divisions that make up the 'country' of Iraq...... more and more every day... this is not a conflict that will EVER be won by simple military superiority.... if it was it would already be over... just as Bush expected it to be.....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[tommo 0]

This was never about "war on terror" or protecting the freedom of the USA. It is entirely about oil supply and domination of world markets by greedy multi national companies. Most of which are US based. To try and legitimise the exercise Weak and ineffectual sycophantic leaders of other countries were encouraged to join in this invasion. To ensure they joined in, "inteligence" doctored half truths and in certain cases actual lies were fed to the world community via a controlled press, themselves eager to jump on the bandwagon.

[Trent 0]

Perhaps you're responding to the wrong person. That's not what I'm talking about.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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It is ignorant to presume that they (their leaders such as they exist) do not understand and exploit the differences in our cultures in exactly the manner that makes it difficult for us to address...

Before calling someone ignorant, you should find where they presumed anything like that. I know the insurgents get the fact that by dividing public opinion on our presence in Iraq that they're helping themselves out. It's working in Iraq and it's working here.

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Understanding your enemy is a key factor in being able to defeat them (but we have FAR more we have to accomplish than the simple military 'defeat' in order to have achieved anything.....)

I get that understanding them and their tactics will help in acheiving victory. But touting them as freedom fighters and ignoring the fact that people are too blind to see that they're killing mainly their own people is just stupid. The problem with this isn't that people don't understand the terrorists, it's that they don't understand how to convey that they're hurting Iraq and the mideast to their own people.

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...one huge ongoing error is the pretense that we do not have to fight "for hearts and minds"...

I know that has to happen, and if I do... I'm sure some of our higher ups in the military do. But like you said, anything done by the US will be spun into propaganda for the terrorists. You know it will. What would YOU suggest we do to win hearts and minds over there? Let a few of our troops get blown up by seemingly innocent terrorists? Stop all fighting unless its in self defense? I can see how that'd get spun right away by the bastards.

Question the overall strategy all you want, that's good... that's why SC has so much to talk about and occasionally progress gets made in more important places... but this all started out with people here thinking that these people are freedom fighters. Really, you think they are? Fighting for what freedom, to go back to living under someone like Saddam, Khomeni? Freedom to kill their own people? Freedom to not vote and be forced to adhere to the most extreme of islamic rituals? Freedom to wipe out the heathens that aren't in their sect of islam? Where were these "freedom fighters" when Saddam was killing his own people? The fact that the arab world doesn't ask itself these questions is amazing, but I understand that it is easier to blame the west instead.

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what you seem to fail to grasp is the 'rightness' of a cause (as determined by history, always written by the victors) has NOTHING to do with heroism...

Was I talking about heroism? Or was I talking about how us understanding the entire Nazi mentality was not necessary for most of the world to decide that it was wrong and needed to be stopped? I forget because it's becoming habit for you to put words in my mouth.

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seeing the other side is CRITICAL to being able to predict and prevent surprises...

I agree.

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...and reach an eventual compromise that the moderate majority (and the majority of ANY population falls in the middle of the belief, not the edges) will agree to and support...

And what to do with the extremes for whom there is no compromise and will continue to try to sway the moderate? Just today it seems that more Iraqi leaders gave support to the elections and it is the small factions that are causing the problems.

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we are alienating that majority, even inside the individual tribal and religious divisions that make up the 'country' of Iraq...... more and more every day

I'd say that the arab world is alienating the majority by giving overt support to the "GREAT SATAN" ideology. Granted, walking through with an iron fist would do the same, but when you have most of the mid-east news focusing on Abu-Graib and other "relatively" small incedents instead of the fact that many people WANT to have elections and WANT to take control over their own country's destiny, even if they don't like the US being there right now, it shows that we are not the only divisive factor.

But you're right, maybe in the future we'll live in a county that tells people living under regimes like the Taliban, Kim Jong Il, or Saddam, "Hey, you get the government you deserve. Deal with it!" But that still won't make it right.

Oh, hello again!

[Zenister 0]

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I get that understanding them and their tactics will help in acheiving victory. But touting them as freedom fighters and ignoring the fact that people are too blind to see that they're killing mainly their own people is just stupid. The problem with this isn't that people don't understand the terrorists, it's that they don't understand how to convey that they're hurting Iraq and the mideast to their own people....Fighting for what freedom, to go back to living under someone like Saddam, Khomeni? Freedom to kill their own people? Freedom to not vote and be forced to adhere to the most extreme of islamic rituals? Freedom to wipe out the heathens that aren't in their sect of islam? Where were these "freedom fighters" when Saddam was killing his own people?

but they ARE 'freedom fighters'. It is just not OUR 'freedom' they are fighting for..They are fighting for the freedom to continue THEIR way of life, the life they chose to accept, without interference from the west. We are attempting to change that concept for the 'average' Iraqi, to give them a broader, more western understanding of 'freedom' and the possibilities available to them......and they use the best, most readily available weapons and tactics they can... they obviously are not stupid.. Stupid would be attempting to fight us on OUR terms... something everyone seems to want them to do and calls them cowards when they dont...

The British once said the same of the American Revolutionaries.. WE too used tactics that to them were cowardly and despicable, not at all the 'honorable conduct of war'.

you know what the difference was? We WON.. IF (and i sincerely doubt it will, and am contributing my efforts daily, to see that it doesnt, but look at it in a broader perspective) THEY WIN this conflict EVERY death on their side (willing or not) will be seen as a 'hero' and a 'martyr' for their country... It is about perspective and who's paradym will rule in the future of Iraq...


i'm addressing far more than your comments in every post, a web board isnt simply a conversation between two people, even when only two people are currently carrying the thread... so stop taking them personally, if you read up you'll see exactly where I am responding to those who cannot seem conceive of a 'hero' except as someone that fights for our side...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Trent 0]

So by your rationale, then the US troops are "freedom fighters" fighting to help the average Iraqi experience a level of democracy and freedom that they have not previously known. I understand that you and the terrorists and the arab media thinks that these terrorists are "freedom fighters", but in your heart and in an objective reality, you'd see that people killing their own people, even those who may sympathize with them does not have a just cause. My comment about the stupidity of this whole concept was not describing the terrorists, it is describing the people who have been fooled into thinking that they are "freedom fighters".

Since you misunderstood and went on to talk about tactics employed by the scum, would you be a proponent for having the US modify their tactics to directly combat these activities? Or would that just scream that we're not fighting a fair war and we shouldn't lower ourselves to their level, like so many posters here do?

And as long as you are responding to me and quoting me, I'll keep thinking you are talking to me.

Oh, hello again!

[Zenister 0]

you could use those terms, but they are not very accurate even from inside our culture... 'freedom fighters' do not invade and occupy... you are trying to say that because they use tactics and means we find despicable and morally corrupt that THEY could not possibly be fighting for the freedom to practice THEIR way of life...

we are fighting to impose OUR idea and ideals of 'freedom' on their culture/country ..what you still fail to see is the broader picture..

there is no objective reality in war... truth is written by the victors... but of course you need a broad understanding of politics and history to see that... tell me who was 'morally right' the Romans or the Gauls? does it even matter now????

i suppose you believe the British Empire (having defeated the American Revolutionaries) would not have refered to Washington and crew as 'terrorists' and 'insurgents' from a historical perspective???

as to modifying our tactics (ie adapting theirs), no not at all... i guess you cant read where i clearly stated we MUST accept the tactical disadvantages imposed by fighting in 'our' way in order to maintain the moral high ground and be able to create the free society we envision for a democratic Iraq... as soon as we lower ourselves to their level, by adopting their means and values...... WE LOSE, even if we kill everyone of them, man woman and child..... again.. this conflict will NOT be resolved by simple military force...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[freethefly 6]

I good understanding of right, wrong, justice, injustice as well as just and unjust and the virtues of the human race can be obtained by reading Plato's "The Republic". It was written well over 2000 years ago.
It is alarming that what was argued then is argued still and no one has yet to fully understand where it is we are going because we have yet to get past the first step - being a true civilization.

Definition, Civilize, verb - to bring out of savagery

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Trent 0]

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you could use those terms, but they are not very accurate even from inside our culture... 'freedom fighters' do not invade and occupy...

So what do you call the foreigners in Iraq who are fighting against the Iraqi and American forces?

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there is no objective reality in war... truth is written by the victors...

So, we should ignore genocides and serious brutal dictators, hell even terrorists since this could very well be part of their culture? Like I said, it doesn't take a degree in philosophy or a job in intelligence to know what is wrong.

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but of course you need a broad understanding of politics and history to see that...

Of course you could debate the moral position of the Roman Gaul wars today. Does it make a difference now? No. You could go on to say that this war will eventually make no difference as well since the sun will probably set on the human race at some point. We're talking about today and what we're doing now.

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i suppose you believe the British Empire (having defeated the American Revolutionaries) would not have refered to Washington and crew as 'terrorists' and 'insurgents' from a historical perspective???

But what were the revolutionaries fighting for? A free and independant state, democracy. Apparently that was the way to go since much of the world adopted it since. Would tyranny under an empire been better just because the Brits may have won? History books, no matter who wrote them, do not change the intrisic "rightness" or "wrongness" of a conflict, they just allow the victor to explain themselves.

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as to modifying our tactics (ie adapting theirs), no not at all...

So we'll fight how we fight, according to our standards, no matter what? Wouldn't that make it almost pointless to understand our enemies?

You're right, this conflict won't be resolved by simple military force. It will take the Iraqi people getting together to decide that they've had enough of small groups trying to determine their destiny for them. Right now, our troops are fighting these radicals so that average Iraqis can have a say in their own government in free elections. Unfortunately, it's hard for them to see that when they're constantly bombarded with propaganda from here and their own media claiming that the US wants to control Iraq in an imperialistic fashion.

Oh, hello again!

[Zenister 0]

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So, we should ignore genocides and serious brutal dictators, hell even terrorists since this could very well be part of their culture? Like I said, it doesn't take a degree in philosophy or a job in intelligence to know what is wrong.

tell that to the Indians... oh wait we won... so i guess we were right... what do the Neo-Cons say whenever anyone attempts to teach our children what REALLY happened?? What did/do your high school history books say about Manifest Destiny? does the word genocide pop up often??

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Of course you could debate the moral position of the Roman Gaul wars today. Does it make a difference now? No. You could go on to say that this war will eventually make no difference as well since the sun will probably set on the human race at some point. We're talking about today and what we're doing now.

not really, we pretty much only have the Roman side of the story, accurate accounts of the motivations and cultural values of the Gauls do not exist, were replaced by those of the victors.. we can make guesses about them and the different path society might have taken if the Gaul’s had won based on archeological evidence, but we cannot view the outcome through any filter other than the one left by the prevailing culture..the culture ours grew out of....

we are also talking about how this war and its participants will be viewed tomorrow... to determine that we have to know who will be the one writing the history... who's cultural paradigm will prevail...

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i suppose you believe the British Empire (having defeated the American Revolutionaries) would not have refered to Washington and crew as 'terrorists' and 'insurgents' from a historical perspective???

But what were the revolutionaries fighting for? A free and independant state, democracy. Apparently that was the way to go since much of the world adopted it since. Would tyranny under an empire been better just because the Brits may have won? History books, no matter who wrote them, do not change the intrisic "rightness" or "wrongness" of a conflict, they just allow the victor to explain themselves.

Not true.. the only reason you can say that, can even think of it in those terms is because we WON, and our culture has taught its children those values are held in higher regard than obedience to the crown....... if we had lost it would have been described as rebellion against the lawful governance by the British Empire...

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as to modifying our tactics (ie adapting theirs), no not at all...

So we'll fight how we fight, according to our standards, no matter what? Wouldn't that make it almost pointless to understand our enemies?

no we still fight by our standards, our principles, but by understanding their mindset and motivations we can 'get inside' their decision cycle.. this allows us to predict and in some cases prevent them from exploiting our behaviors in an effective manner, and modify those behaviors (within our standard of conduct) to minimize the results of their propaganda ‘spin’ and its affect on the moderates, those we are trying to ‘win over’ to our side… it also means we can predict and react to what they will most likely do on a military level before they do it...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Trent 0]

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tell that to the Indians... oh wait we won... so i guess we were right... what do the Neo-Cons say ... blah blah blah

GUESS WHAT?? I learned that the Indians were brutally massacred. I learned that some settlers were also brutally massacred. I came to my own conclusion, while benefitting from the fact that "we" won, that what happened to the Indians was wrong. Very similarly, I can conclude that what the Nazi party was doing in Europe was wrong, what Saddam did to his people, and what the terrorists are doing to their own people is wrong. Guess your "winners write the books" doesn't always hold up. Some people think for themselves.

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we are also talking about how this war and its participants will be viewed tomorrow... to determine that we have to know who will be the one writing the history... who's cultural paradigm will prevail...

You've already made your decision, the "freedom fighters" are the good guys to you. You've made that clear. It won't matter who writes the books to many people, they'll already have decided.

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the only reason you can say that, can even think of it in those terms is because we WON, and our culture has taught its children those values are held in higher regard than obedience to the crown...

But we didn't invade England and force democracy on them did we? We didn't do that to any other countries that are strong democracies today, did we? So tell me, would that have eventually happened without the American Revolution? Then you'd have people in other countries saying "Gee imperialism was the wrong way to go." And it wouldn't have anything to do with where I'm sitting now.

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no we still fight by our standards, our principles, but by understanding their mindset and motivations...

So wait, we DO change our tactics by understanding our enemies? But we DON'T because that'd be lowering ourselves to their level?

Understanding how the enemy will fight in open combat and politically will help us predict their moves, which will help us combat their moves, or take those moves away in the first place. Acting on this information is not lowering ourselves to their level, it is being flexible and realistic. I never said we should blow up crowds of Iraqis at water trucks because, hey they could be bad guys. I never said we should take terrorist hostages and cut their heads off to show the others what they had coming. You don't seem to understand that reacting to the enemy tactics doesn't mean resorting to the enemy tactics.

Either way, this is a HUGE drift from what I originally posted. Terrorists in Iraq kill more of their own people than US troops. For someone who should know better, calling them "freedom fighters" is despicable. Someone just needs to make sure that the people in the mid east start to see that these fucks are killing their own people, and if they came to actual power... would probably kill more if they weren't in the same branch of Islam.

Oh, hello again!

[Zenister 0]

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[You've already made your decision, the "freedom fighters" are the good guys to you. You've made that clear. It won't matter who writes the books to many people, they'll already have decided.

Now are putting words in my mouth, and those words smell of shit... you clearly have issues with reading compression... I'm done attempting to explain to you how and why it is nessesary to perceive the world in terms less absolute than the simple ‘black hats’ and ‘white hats’ movie perspective you have....

there are very few absolutes in life, and you'll get allot farther if you attempt to understand the REAL motivations that drive people to fight, die and kill from THEIR perspective, and how far they will go to achieve THEIR ends, instead of the only one you know, the only one you can comprehend.….

but the FACTS are you have no clue what i have 'decided' and clearly cannot read or comprehend what I have actually said and have been trying to explain to you... but if you believe for an INSTANT I'm supporting the insurgents or that i believe they are the 'Good Guys" you can fuck right off... and i will gladly tell you that to your face... it was a nice discussion until you decide and ignorantly assert that because i DO understand something you do not, cannot, that i am siding with them..

DONT ACCUSE ME OF BEING A TRAITOR... EVER

what the fuck have YOU done today, last week, or even last year to make a difference in this conflict?? WTF do you think you know from your armchair perspective and mass media sources??? Clearly not very fucking much….

and it saying that gets me banned so be it, but some statements are simply intolerable...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[slug 1]

Hi Zen

Tell me if I'm close to understanding what your saying.

In some wars (ethnic clensing etc don't count) there are two sides and both sides can be fighting for their god and country (which is good)The other side has to be the bad guy's in order to justify killing each other

Then after the war is over the winner gets to declare themselves good guy/gals

Close? Way off?

41
R.i.P.

[Trent 0]

Clearly you don't like having words put in your mouth. So now you know what it's been like having to listen to you tell me what I know, think and understand... on top of telling me I'm ignorant and undeducated countless times. Once you began insinuating that other people, not just me, were ignorant and uneducated, it ceased to be a nice discussion. That happened a while ago.

If YOU took the time to see through your rage and read what I've said, you'd see that I never said we shouldn't understand our enemies. I said we don't have to understand someone's motivations to know that their actions are wrong. And yes, that may be somewhat ethnocentric but when it comes to some things it makes little difference.

Honestly, I don't think YOU're a traitor. I'm glad there are people like you doing whatever it is you do (you've hinted at it, so I can only guess). But my original post and opinion stands. People who do think that those guys are "freedom fighters" doing their patriotic duty are deluded... for the reasons I've mentioned time and time again. And, like it or not, many many people have decided that these terrorists are the good guys, and their opinions will not be swayed, just as you can't sway my opinion that the massacre of the Indians was wrong.

And again, you top it all of with more venom. If you took my comments that personally, then I apoligize. If this were the real world, I wouldn't "press charges" with the DZ.com police to ban you. I can take an insult and give em just the same. But if you think since I'm not in the service or directly connected to the war that I should not have an opinion, you might re-think reading or posting on internet forums. I'm here to talk about things. Why are you here?

Oh, hello again!

[434 2]

If your Government was a threat to the safety of world, and a coalition agreed together to take your leaders away! The coalition had another culture and religion! Your leaders had for years taking your freedom away slowly for your own best and safety. Slowly they had gained totally control, and with law in hand become a dictatorship! The coalition had the best intentions for your people, and wanted to help, to put a new government in place (They only hand picked the leaders they thought would be the best for the world safety)
What would you do?

We had this in norway when Hitler wanted to save us from the communists (Thats one of the reasons! He also wanted to secure the ore transportation from Sweden) (Allies wanted to help Finland, and also get the hands of ore! Norway had claimed to neutral, so Allies was going to take control of Norway as well)Allies and Germany wanted to have our ice free harbors! Germany got here first! They put together a norwegian government, and everything should have been ok. It was peace and order, but we where occupied.

The Government by Quisling well know to the hole world as an traitor, placed by Hitler for stabilizing Norway during the occupation, and prevent any aggression! I think there is alot to learn from this occupation, the resistance was small, but it was there, and never gave up as long the Germans was here! Norwegian quislings was killed by the resistance to scare them away for cooperating with the Germans, a lot of Norwegians also joined the German army to fight against the communists! I believe the same happens in the middle east, when Arabs hear about how the American army is killing innocent people. For every civilian life who is killed, there will be more resistance, and willing to do what ever they can do! Hate is a very good reason to even offer your own life in the fight for what you believe! Those who win the media war will win!

As long there is Americans on the soil in Iraq, there will be resistance!

Americans have an different culture!
Americans have an different religion!
Americans is better equipped, so arabs use what they have! Cruel actions, poor mans weapons, and fear! But a kill is a kill, nothing to do what kind of method, or weapon!

How many people have been killed since the coalition kept on bombing Iraq after the first gulf war? How many is killed by accidents by fail bombing in Iraq this war, compared to how many Saddam killed? You can imagine, there is some relatives who already hate Americans before you invaded!

There is many different cultures, philosophy of religion and nations inside Iraq, and Saddam managed to keep Iraq together with fear! I do not say this to defend Saddam, but for me it seems democracy is not possible at this time for Iraq. Democracy is something that is formed by time, and not put together in short time!

I believe US will have to accept to stay in Iraq for a long time, still loose soldiers, and maybe organized attacks on American property and soil! If not a Arab coalition are ready to take over! What then if so happens?