Botellines 0 #1 December 6, 2004 clicky CORONADO, Calif. — The U.S. military has launched a criminal investigation into photographs that appear to show Navy SEALs in Iraq sitting on hooded and handcuffed detainees, and photos of what appear to be bloodied prisoners, one with a gun to his head. Some of the photos have date stamps suggesting they were taken in May 2003, which could make them the earliest evidence of possible abuse of prisoners in Iraq. The far more brutal practices photographed in Abu Ghraib prison occurred months later. I guess that there is more than just a couple of bad aples in the basket... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #2 December 6, 2004 I find myself these days writing posts in reponse to "America Hater" "Sideline Quarterback" ones such as this, hesitating, and then just deleting them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #3 December 6, 2004 QuoteI find myself these days writing posts in reponse to "America Hater" "Sideline Quarterback" ones such as this, hesitating, and then just deleting them. If you want to be thought of as the "White Hats" then you have to behave as the "White Hats" behave. If you behave like the "Black Hats", then don't expect to be lauded as a "White Hat".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #4 December 6, 2004 QuoteQuoteI find myself these days writing posts in reponse to "America Hater" "Sideline Quarterback" ones such as this, hesitating, and then just deleting them. If you want to be thought of as the "White Hats" then you have to behave as the "White Hats" behave. If you behave like the "Black Hats", then don't expect to be lauded as a "White Hat". Mine's green. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #5 December 6, 2004 So nice to see that my post tweaked a nerve with you. Tell me - how do you know the prisoner with a gun to his head hadn't just prior to the photograph attempted to escape or do something violent? Ahhh....I'll answer - you don't. How do you know the prisoners weren't hooded for a purpose, such as transport? Ahhh...again I'll answer - you don't. Sitting on a handcuffed prisoner - a bit extreme, but how do you know the prisoner hadn't just tried to flee? Again I'll answer for you - you don't. You then bring up Abu Ghraib once again. You seem to have a fascination with that. Here's a challenge for you. Fairly simple. Compare and contrast the US treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and those featured in the SEAL photos with the treatment given to hostages taken by the insurgents. Then compare and contrast US public reaction to the aforementioned circumstances with the reaction by the Muslim world to the treatment of hostages taken by the insurgents. Then get back to us. Thanks for reading my post. Hope you enjoyed the article. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #6 December 6, 2004 QuoteSo nice to see that my post tweaked a nerve with you. Tell me - how do you know the prisoner with a gun to his head hadn't just prior to the photograph attempted to escape or do something violent? Ahhh....I'll answer - you don't. How do you know the prisoners weren't hooded for a purpose, such as transport? Ahhh...again I'll answer - you don't. Sitting on a handcuffed prisoner - a bit extreme, but how do you know the prisoner hadn't just tried to flee? Again I'll answer for you - you don't. You then bring up Abu Ghraib once again. You seem to have a fascination with that. Here's a challenge for you. Fairly simple. Compare and contrast the US treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and those featured in the SEAL photos with the treatment given to hostages taken by the insurgents. Then compare and contrast US public reaction to the aforementioned circumstances with the reaction by the Muslim world to the treatment of hostages taken by the insurgents. Then get back to us. Thanks for reading my post. Hope you enjoyed the article. The US should not use the insurgents' behavior as a yardstick for acceptable behavior. I'm surprised you think this is even remotely close to an appropriate comparison. The US went in (3rd rationale, after WMDs were not there and links to OBL were debunked) to eliminate bad guys, not to emulate them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #7 December 6, 2004 I make no such assertion. I ask for the comparison to make a broader point - which I shall later reveal. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #8 December 6, 2004 Then compare and contrast US public reaction to the aforementioned circumstances with the reaction by the Muslim world to the treatment of hostages taken by the insurgents. Then get back to us. Quote Wow are you saying that the Muslim world is represented in the 30 sec. Fox news showed you. How do you know how the Muslim world feels? I'll answer for you. You don't know.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #9 December 6, 2004 I'm feeling the same way you are. I'm sure everyone is doing their level best, on both sides. I vasilate between anger over incidents like this - and absolute horror at what the insurgents are doing on a daily basis. Mostly I'm just sad when I think about it at all. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #10 December 6, 2004 There’s a lot that we see on video that can be grossly misinterpreted. There are also some incidents that truly require punishment. The line between right and wrong can get blurry sometimes, though, and it’s hard to always stay within the lines. That’s why I kicked the media out every chance I got (especially the BBC) because all they were looking to do was paint us in a bad light. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #11 December 6, 2004 No doubt there. I don't watch TV much. Web and biased (against the US) newspapers only... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #12 December 6, 2004 QuoteI'm feeling the same way you are. I'm sure everyone is doing their level best, on both sides. I vasilate between anger over incidents like this - and absolute horror at what the insurgents are doing on a daily basis. Mostly I'm just sad when I think about it at all. t That's a good comment, you took the real high road rather than some on here. Recognizing the despicable things are done by despicable individuals is hard to do for some. But picking one side or the other and then acting as if all the people on one side are defined by the worst case elements is lazy and petty and it's only purpose is discord. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GravityGirl 0 #13 December 7, 2004 I just feel sorry for the wife who posted the pictures to begin with. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #14 December 7, 2004 QuoteThat's a good comment, you took the real high road rather than some on here. Of course you say it is a good comment. By bringing in the action of the other bad people you avoid to take full responsability for the actions of the side you are on. I fully agree with Tonto and indeed, it is a good comment, torturing and murdering are despicable no matter who does it. I haven´t ever said otherwise. But just behaving a little bit better than the worst is not convincing anyone that you are the good guys. QuoteRecognizing the despicable things are done by despicable individuals is hard to do for some. I hope you are not talking about me. If so, you are just trying to mislead. Despicable things are done by despicable individuals who are under the orders of people. Arent you curious to know if those who give the orders are also despicable? So far there has been several pictures of tortures in two diferent periods of time, it would be naive to pretend that it has only been those times and that it hasn´t ever happened when there was not a camera around. Don´t you think that there is a real possibility that those soldiers are being given permission to mistreat the prisoners by the officers in command? You have a dilema here, you can support your republican agenda by saying that it is just despicable individuals on their own, or your fellow brothers in arms by saying that they have got "orders" from high above rank. Which one do you choose? QuoteBut picking one side or the other and then acting as if all the people on one side are defined by the worst case elements is lazy and petty and it's only purpose is discord. You may want to remember your words when you treat everybody in fallujah as an insurgent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #15 December 7, 2004 For a person who is supposed to be opened minded, you live quite the opposite impression...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #16 December 7, 2004 QuoteSo nice to see that my post tweaked a nerve with you. Tell me - how do you know the prisoner with a gun to his head hadn't just prior to the photograph attempted to escape or do something violent? Ahhh....I'll answer - you don't. How do you know the prisoners weren't hooded for a purpose, such as transport? Ahhh...again I'll answer - you don't. Sitting on a handcuffed prisoner - a bit extreme, but how do you know the prisoner hadn't just tried to flee? Again I'll answer for you - you don't. Right, we know nothing, hey, maybe the hooded guy was asking for it. Maybe he is in some sort of S&M. Pleeeeeeaseeeee, give me a break. QuoteYou then bring up Abu Ghraib once again. You seem to have a fascination with that. I wish it had never happened QuoteHere's a challenge for you. Fairly simple. Compare and contrast the US treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and those featured in the SEAL photos with the treatment given to hostages taken by the insurgents. Other than the beheading, and you will agree with me that the U.S has also killed his share of innocent people, including Guantanamo, the treatment is pretty much the same. The only different is that you get all pissy if someone call you terrorist, and they know they are terrorists. QuoteThen compare and contrast US public reaction to the aforementioned circumstances with the reaction by the Muslim world to the treatment of hostages taken by the insurgents. Then get back to us. I am comparing now those americans screaming let´s nuke them and yelling something about glass parking lot with those muslims dancing in the street everytime one of your guys die. Sorry, what is your point? QuoteThanks for reading my post. Hope you enjoyed the article. No problem, you can repay me if you like by answering my question in the execution thread. (If you are pro death penalty). It seems that no pro-death penalty type guy has any idea how to support their believes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 December 6, 2004 I'm feeling the same way you are. I'm sure everyone is doing their level best, on both sides. I vasilate between anger over incidents like this - and absolute horror at what the insurgents are doing on a daily basis. Mostly I'm just sad when I think about it at all. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #10 December 6, 2004 There’s a lot that we see on video that can be grossly misinterpreted. There are also some incidents that truly require punishment. The line between right and wrong can get blurry sometimes, though, and it’s hard to always stay within the lines. That’s why I kicked the media out every chance I got (especially the BBC) because all they were looking to do was paint us in a bad light. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #11 December 6, 2004 No doubt there. I don't watch TV much. Web and biased (against the US) newspapers only... tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 December 6, 2004 QuoteI'm feeling the same way you are. I'm sure everyone is doing their level best, on both sides. I vasilate between anger over incidents like this - and absolute horror at what the insurgents are doing on a daily basis. Mostly I'm just sad when I think about it at all. t That's a good comment, you took the real high road rather than some on here. Recognizing the despicable things are done by despicable individuals is hard to do for some. But picking one side or the other and then acting as if all the people on one side are defined by the worst case elements is lazy and petty and it's only purpose is discord. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 December 7, 2004 I just feel sorry for the wife who posted the pictures to begin with. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #14 December 7, 2004 QuoteThat's a good comment, you took the real high road rather than some on here. Of course you say it is a good comment. By bringing in the action of the other bad people you avoid to take full responsability for the actions of the side you are on. I fully agree with Tonto and indeed, it is a good comment, torturing and murdering are despicable no matter who does it. I haven´t ever said otherwise. But just behaving a little bit better than the worst is not convincing anyone that you are the good guys. QuoteRecognizing the despicable things are done by despicable individuals is hard to do for some. I hope you are not talking about me. If so, you are just trying to mislead. Despicable things are done by despicable individuals who are under the orders of people. Arent you curious to know if those who give the orders are also despicable? So far there has been several pictures of tortures in two diferent periods of time, it would be naive to pretend that it has only been those times and that it hasn´t ever happened when there was not a camera around. Don´t you think that there is a real possibility that those soldiers are being given permission to mistreat the prisoners by the officers in command? You have a dilema here, you can support your republican agenda by saying that it is just despicable individuals on their own, or your fellow brothers in arms by saying that they have got "orders" from high above rank. Which one do you choose? QuoteBut picking one side or the other and then acting as if all the people on one side are defined by the worst case elements is lazy and petty and it's only purpose is discord. You may want to remember your words when you treat everybody in fallujah as an insurgent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #15 December 7, 2004 For a person who is supposed to be opened minded, you live quite the opposite impression...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #16 December 7, 2004 QuoteSo nice to see that my post tweaked a nerve with you. Tell me - how do you know the prisoner with a gun to his head hadn't just prior to the photograph attempted to escape or do something violent? Ahhh....I'll answer - you don't. How do you know the prisoners weren't hooded for a purpose, such as transport? Ahhh...again I'll answer - you don't. Sitting on a handcuffed prisoner - a bit extreme, but how do you know the prisoner hadn't just tried to flee? Again I'll answer for you - you don't. Right, we know nothing, hey, maybe the hooded guy was asking for it. Maybe he is in some sort of S&M. Pleeeeeeaseeeee, give me a break. QuoteYou then bring up Abu Ghraib once again. You seem to have a fascination with that. I wish it had never happened QuoteHere's a challenge for you. Fairly simple. Compare and contrast the US treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and those featured in the SEAL photos with the treatment given to hostages taken by the insurgents. Other than the beheading, and you will agree with me that the U.S has also killed his share of innocent people, including Guantanamo, the treatment is pretty much the same. The only different is that you get all pissy if someone call you terrorist, and they know they are terrorists. QuoteThen compare and contrast US public reaction to the aforementioned circumstances with the reaction by the Muslim world to the treatment of hostages taken by the insurgents. Then get back to us. I am comparing now those americans screaming let´s nuke them and yelling something about glass parking lot with those muslims dancing in the street everytime one of your guys die. Sorry, what is your point? QuoteThanks for reading my post. Hope you enjoyed the article. No problem, you can repay me if you like by answering my question in the execution thread. (If you are pro death penalty). It seems that no pro-death penalty type guy has any idea how to support their believes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #17 December 7, 2004 QuoteFor a person who is supposed to be opened minded, you live quite the opposite impression.... Is that suppose to be a personal attack? And i am close minded regarding to what? I have told you many times before that if you cannot contribute to the thread with anything useful, it is much better not to say anything. That includes spelling and grammar corrections, copy-pasting other people posts and one line posts. Thank you, and please do check again the forum rules in SC, they have not changed but you may have forgotten them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #18 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteFor a person who is supposed to be opened minded, you live quite the opposite impression.... Is that suppose to be a personal attack? And i am close minded regarding to what? I have told you many times before that if you cannot contribute to the thread with anything useful, it is much better not to say anything. That includes spelling and grammar corrections, copy-pasting other people posts and one line posts. Thank you, and please do check again the forum rules in SC, they have not changed but you may have forgotten them. You are not entitled to dictate what to post or not. If you take that comment as personal attack, then one more reason for me to doubt your intentions of this, lets say not so useful thread to incite discord. AKA trolls. You did not see Rehwma's response was rather an eloquent one to Tonto's. Not even involved with you. And as far as explaining you many things in the past, seeing that you are really into getting your military bearings from a dicitonary, doubt that have expertise in any lets say constructive dialogue of the things that go wrong over a war zone.................."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #19 December 7, 2004 Another nerve tweaked. Do you actually believe that you are the only one here who speaks any Arabic or Farsi, has read the Koran, has travelled to the Middle East, interacts with Arabs & Persians, knows Arabs & Persians, or reads about the area and its internal politics? If that's your belief, I suggest you revise it. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #20 December 7, 2004 LMAO Anvil...It is verydefinite that many think that the "muslim" world is very tolerant, not all but the majority...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #21 December 7, 2004 Deee Ohh Deee Geeee Eeee...that spells 'DODGE'. I'll happily answer whatever death penalty question you have - just provide me a link to the thread. The Great Kallend was unable to find a chink in the armor of my pro-death penalty argument from a Catholic standpoint - though he nonetheless considers part of it 'feeble' ( to Kallend) - and I seriously doubt you would be able to do so either. So nice to have Thomas Aquinas agreeing with me. Ahhh...I digress. Regarding the photos of the SEALs... You discount the fact that you don't know anything other than what's in the photos then state this Abu Ghraib incident is something you wish never happened - you and damned near every U.S. citizen as well. You then present no comparison as I asked - because you don't like what the connotations of such a comparison imply about your own position with regards to the U.S. D-O-D-G-E. Try again. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #22 December 7, 2004 QuoteYou are not entitled to dictate what to post or not. If you take that comment as personal attack, then one more reason for me to doubt your intentions of this, lets say not so useful thread to incite discord. AKA trolls. Come on, Juanesky. We all know here your agenda and you are not precisely famous for your respectful posts, specially to those who don´t share your right wing ideals. By the way, strange criteria for identifying a troll: left wing = troll. QuoteYou did not see Rehwma's response was rather an eloquent one to Tonto's. Not even involved with you. I have also asked you many times before to read the whole thread before posting. Please do read it this time and you will see how Rehwma was talking about me. QuoteAnd as far as explaining you many things in the past, seeing that you are really into getting your military bearings from a dicitonary, doubt that have expertise in any lets say constructive dialogue of the things that go wrong over a war zone.................. I assume that you are just writing me from Irak or afganistan to be able to lecture me. I mean you talk about this conflict so matter-of-factly that i wouldn´t think of you that you are an armchair quaterback... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #23 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou are not entitled to dictate what to post or not. If you take that comment as personal attack, then one more reason for me to doubt your intentions of this, lets say not so useful thread to incite discord. AKA trolls. Come on, Juanesky. We all know here your agenda and you are not precisely famous for your respectful posts, specially to those who don´t share your right wing ideals. By the way, strange criteria for identifying a troll: left wing = troll. QuoteYou did not see Rehwma's response was rather an eloquent one to Tonto's. Not even involved with you. I have also asked you many times before to read the whole thread before posting. Please do read it this time and you will see how Rehwma was talking about me. QuoteAnd as far as explaining you many things in the past, seeing that you are really into getting your military bearings from a dicitonary, doubt that have expertise in any lets say constructive dialogue of the things that go wrong over a war zone.................. I assume that you are just writing me from Irak or afganistan to be able to lecture me. I mean you talk about this conflict so matter-of-factly that i wouldn´t think of you that you are an armchair quaterback... Do you understand the word military bearings? When you do, please get back to me. Thanks."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #24 December 7, 2004 QuoteI'll happily answer whatever death penalty question you have - just provide me a link to the thread. clicky QuoteRegarding the photos of the SEALs... You discount the fact that you don't know anything other than what's in the photos And don´t you think that is enough? You have to really use your imagination to make up an excuse for sitting on top of a prisoner. No trained person would ever sit on top of a person in order to hold him down. Maybe the marine was tired? we cannot tell from the picture. QuoteYou then present no comparison as I asked - because you don't like what the connotations of such a comparison imply about your own position with regards to the U.S. No, i compared the most extremist person i can find in the U.S with the most extremist person i can find in Irak. If you want me, i can compare the most open minded american with the most open minded Iraki, and both would see it with a mixed of horror and sadness, and there is a whole lot in the middle. Again, unless you are asking me to compare the most radical iraky with the average american, (then yes, there is a diference) i don´t see your point. It is not dodge, it is just that i didn´t fall for wathever trick/trap you were just setting. QuoteD-O-D-G-E. Try again. I just did, if this is not the right answer either, please do tell me wich one it is because i am truly curious. Surely you are not implying that all irakis are radicals or that all americans are well moderated. We have gotten nuts in every single country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #25 December 7, 2004 QuoteDo you understand the word military bearings. hey ive got some of those! got them out of a T72 near Sammara ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
