mnealtx 0 #26 December 2, 2004 Quote Believe it or not, I'm with you there. I have nothing but negative feelings towards a murderer. But it doesn't matter what I or you think, what matters is whether we grant the state the right to take a life. Obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Quote except at the pleasure of the state. What do you mean by that? That it is the decision of the individual state as to whether or not to make the criminal pay for his or her crimes with their life. QuoteNice try, but wrong question. My "satisfaction" regarding a murderer being alive or not doesn't matter here. Where I DO feel satisfaction is that I live in a country that recognizes the right to life as being inviolable. The justice system has no authority about a persons life, and rightfully so. Obviously, the U.S. Justice system is different than Germany's. And again, obviously, we differ in opinion as to which is best.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #27 December 2, 2004 QuoteObviously, the U.S. Justice system is different than Germany's And every other democratic nation. Why is it that we are the only free nation that executes criminals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteObviously, the U.S. Justice system is different than Germany's And every other democratic nation. Why is it that we are the only free nation that executes criminals? Got a cite for that?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #29 December 2, 2004 The way i see it is that if we were always 100% that the guy did it, we could be discussing this subject in a more ethical level and wether we want to give our government that much power. Unfortunately, in any country, not just the U.S, there is too much bias in the judge and in the jury to guarantee a 100% accurate veredict. So weighting the posibility that an innocent gets put to death, against the posibility that a criminal get a life term instead capital punishment, i will go for the last one. Wouldn´t you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 December 2, 2004 http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #31 December 2, 2004 or http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Use-of-death-penalty-worldwide Nice list to be part of. Find anywhere in the list you'd rather live? Elswhere on the site you can find this heart warming quote: "Only seven countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, that is criminals aged under 18 at the time of their crime. Nearly all actual executions for juvenile crime take place in the USA" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #32 December 2, 2004 Ah, I see, now.... I never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) weren't free countries... thanks for the update. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #33 December 2, 2004 QuoteI never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) actually israel does not use the death penalty. it can only be applied to war criminals and was used only once in the trial of the nazi Adolf Eichman. some say it should be applied in terrorists' trials, but its not at the moment... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteAre you joking? Don't you think DNA can be planted very easily? Just because the DNA matches...... that means - the DNA matches. DNA is not really taken as sole link of evidence. DNA is typically not the only facet of evidence of a crime. If it was, OJ would have been found guilty. But that glove was 'planted', remember? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #35 December 2, 2004 QuoteAh, I see, now.... I never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) weren't free countries... thanks for the update. Do you feel good about the USA being among the tiny group of countries that executes juveniles? Do you feel really good about the company you're in? When was the last execution in Israel? The others you mention all have authoritarian governments (but we're getting there fast).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #36 December 2, 2004 Looking for things to admire about the other countries that execute (particularly juveniles) is kind of like looking for someone else who's jumping a smaller canopy with fewer jumps and not dying, isn't it? "If he's doing it that makes it OK for me." Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rower 0 #37 December 2, 2004 Wow, I had no idea that was the case. That's really disheartening. While I am not opposed to the death penalty, my thoughts about prison and the death penalty have changed significantly with more reading on the topic. Some good non-academic books about this subject include "Newjack: Guarding Sing Sing" and "Bloodsworth". While the former is not about the death penalty, it is an interesting study on the effects of prison life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #38 December 2, 2004 QuoteThat's really disheartening. It is. I don't have particularly strong views on the death penalty. I do think suspects should be provide with at least competent legal representation though. Read up on the problems - there are many sites dedicated to them. One to start with could be http://www.amicus-alj.org/ I guess posting them here is a way I can atone for repeatedly avoiding being recruited by them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #39 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteAh, I see, now.... I never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) weren't free countries... thanks for the update. Do you feel good about the USA being among the tiny group of countries that executes juveniles? Do you feel really good about the company you're in? When was the last execution in Israel? The others you mention all have authoritarian governments (but we're getting there fast). First off, I didn't look for any link to juvenile executions, so I can't speak for that part of it. If they are judged competent to stand trial, they should be eligible for the same punishments as anyone else. If that be death, so be it. I've found information online that shows that in the last (roughly) 30 years, the U.S. has sentenced to death 22 individuals that were between 16 and 17 years old at the time of their crimes. None of the criminals were younger than 23 at the time of death. If you have information that someone younger than 18 has been executed please let me know. Note: The Supreme Court has stated that the death sentence is applicable for the ages of 16 and 17.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #40 December 2, 2004 Quotehttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html That source claims the death penalty in Germany has been abolished in 1987, without further explanation. That is not correct, the date only applies to the former GDR! The other Source is more accurate: Germany (none since unification, abolished in FRG in 1949 and in GDR 1987) Sorry for the nitpicking. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #41 December 2, 2004 QuoteIf they are judged competent to stand trial, they should be eligible for the same punishments as anyone else. If that be death, so be it. They may receive the death penalty for crimes committed at juvenile age, but are not eligible to drink alcohol until the age of 21 because they are considered "too immature". Whow that kind of hypocrisy blows my mind! Quote I've found information online that shows that in the last (roughly) 30 years, the U.S. has sentenced to death 22 individuals that were between 16 and 17 years old at the time of their crimes. None of the criminals were younger than 23 at the time of death. WTF does it matter what age they were when executed? The date when the crime was committed is important. If they were minors at that time, they must not be judged like an adult! How pervert is that? Next time a 10 year old in a sandbox bashes his friends head in in an uncontrolled outbreak of childish rage, we just wait 8 years to execute him and everything will be perfectly legal. QuoteIf you have information that someone younger than 18 has been executed please let me know. Please read this Quote: The juvenile death penalty is based on the false assumption that 16- and 17-year-olds possess the cognitive and emotional maturity of adulthood. Health professionals know that this assumption contradicts medical and scientific knowledge of adolescents’ development and capacities -- and that executing young offenders is inappropriate and unjust. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #42 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAh, I see, now.... I never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) weren't free countries... thanks for the update. Do you feel good about the USA being among the tiny group of countries that executes juveniles? Do you feel really good about the company you're in? When was the last execution in Israel? The others you mention all have authoritarian governments (but we're getting there fast). First off, I didn't look for any link to juvenile executions, so I can't speak for that part of it. If they are judged competent to stand trial, they should be eligible for the same punishments as anyone else. If that be death, so be it. I've found information online that shows that in the last (roughly) 30 years, the U.S. has sentenced to death 22 individuals that were between 16 and 17 years old at the time of their crimes. None of the criminals were younger than 23 at the time of death. If you have information that someone younger than 18 has been executed please let me know. Note: The Supreme Court has stated that the death sentence is applicable for the ages of 16 and 17. Countries that execute juveniles: Communist China Iran Congo Nigeria Pakistan Saudi Arabia Yemen USA Good company, isn't it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #43 December 2, 2004 not just part of the list - leader of the list: QuoteNearly all actual executions for juvenile crime take place in the USA source: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/capital-punishment Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #44 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteTexans, Frances Newton is scheduled to be put to death today. The Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles has asked Governor Perry for a stay of execution for 120 days. However, he has the option to disregard their request and proceed with the execution. I don't know if she is innocent or not, but I think it is worth further investigation. You can read more about this and email Governor Perry at: http://www.texasmoratorium.org/ If there is new evidence, then I'm all for the stay. What chaps my ass is the appeal after appeal after appeal, when there is no new evidence or no changes in evidence.... (the above does not include the automatic appeal in death penalty cases) in reply to a post above, about the death penalty being no deterrent: 1. Rehabilitation through reincarnation 2. It damn sure cuts way down on the recidivism rates... "What chaps my ass is the appeal after appeal after appeal, when there is no new evidence or no changes in evidence...." So what aboutthe Ray Krone story; does that chap your ass too? Or would he have been part of the negligible number of murders of innocent people the death penalty produces - in the name of trying to eliminate/deter murder? Let's see...... he spent 10 years (2 on death row) in prison for a crime that he di not commit. 2 brilliant juries convicted him during this time. With your abreviated appellate process, he would have been murdered by the state long ago; so how does the abreviation of appeals create less crime or how is it a positive thing at all? http://www.innocenceproject.org/case/display_profile.php?id=105 I'm sure you'll, "look into this" too, as you have promised to do in the past. Not trying to start crap, I answer your statements/questions, please answer mine. Truth is, without misdirection or ignoring the truth, it is real hard to support the neo-conservative agenda w/o sounding like Hiltler, who by the way, was also elected. "Krone won a new trial on appeal in 1996, but was convicted again, mainly on the state's supposed expert bite-mark testimony. This time, however, the judge sentenced him to life in prison, citing doubts about whether or not Krone was the true killer." And the liberal have activist judges? Hell, the judge, who was likley conservative as most trial judges, had teh ability to throw out the conviction, but did not. "Prior to his arrest, Krone had no previous criminal record, had been honorably discharged from the military, and had worked in the postal service for seven years." Listen, my conservative skydiving friend, YOU can be convicted of murder while sleeping at home too; quit calling for the murder of people, some of whom are innocent, or you, your friends or your family could be next. "in reply to a post above, about the death penalty being no deterrent:" This is a very layman's approach to deterence. In order for the element of deterrence to even be an issue, the ability of choice must be present. People in jail are without choice, for the most part. As for recicivism goes, they are already in prison for life, so the prospect of returning to prison is moot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #45 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuote1. Rehabilitation through reincarnation 2. It damn sure cuts way down on the recidivism rates... Tasteless. I am also guilty of not always being the politically-correct type, but this comment is not very funny. You seem to be having morbid fun with the thought that a human (guilty of a horrific crime, but still human after all) is being put to death. Or is it just that eye-for-an-eye tastes so sweet for some people? This is the typical mentality of the American conservative. We've had a few pm discussions, hence, this is why I want out. It will be fun, one day, to watch from afar the US perpetuate its intra-division like some runaway Nazi train from hell. I love the US, but it's time to go.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #46 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteTasteless. I am also guilty of not always being the politically-correct type, but this comment is not very funny. You seem to be having morbid fun with the thought that a human (guilty of a horrific crime, but still human after all) is being put to death. Or is it just that eye-for-an-eye tastes so sweet for some people? No, it's the fact that I feel that a murderer has forfeited their right to live, except at the pleasure of the state. "Do you feel satisfaction that a person that has murdered their spouse and children in cold blood is still alive?" You're missing the boat; most death penalty opponents are all for the killing of the Ted Bundy's, John Wayne Gaceys' and all other bastards like that. What hey are wise enough to realize and admit is that there are innocent people convicted and executed and that in order to maintain a system that kills Ted Bundy, we must also maintain the system that kills Ray Krone. Before you talk abiut his exoneration, remember that his family spent over 300k on his freedom. Most convictees either don't have the capital or family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #47 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuote Believe it or not, I'm with you there. I have nothing but negative feelings towards a murderer. But it doesn't matter what I or you think, what matters is whether we grant the state the right to take a life. Obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Quote except at the pleasure of the state. What do you mean by that? That it is the decision of the individual state as to whether or not to make the criminal pay for his or her crimes with their life. QuoteNice try, but wrong question. My "satisfaction" regarding a murderer being alive or not doesn't matter here. Where I DO feel satisfaction is that I live in a country that recognizes the right to life as being inviolable. The justice system has no authority about a persons life, and rightfully so. "Obviously, the U.S. Justice system is different than Germany's. And again, obviously, we differ in opinion as to which is best." Sorry about this, but most of teh rest of the industrialized world is the opposite of the US. I must be that they're wrong and we're right.... Hmmmm, I wonder if Nazi Germany felt the same kind of isolationism before the allieds kicked their ass????? Hmmmm, just food for thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #48 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteObviously, the U.S. Justice system is different than Germany's And every other democratic nation. Why is it that we are the only free nation that executes criminals? And why is it that most other countries, even 'evil' ones don't execute kids? We do..... real bragging rights there..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #49 December 2, 2004 Quoteor http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Use-of-death-penalty-worldwide Nice list to be part of. Find anywhere in the list you'd rather live? Elswhere on the site you can find this heart warming quote: "Only seven countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, that is criminals aged under 18 at the time of their crime. Nearly all actual executions for juvenile crime take place in the USA" "Elswhere on the site you can find this heart warming quote: "Only seven countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, that is criminals aged under 18 at the time of their crime. Nearly all actual executions for juvenile crime take place in the USA"" Hmmm, think I'll move ot China so I can enjoy more human rights..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #50 December 2, 2004 QuoteAh, I see, now.... I never realized that Israel, the Bahamas, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, (etc etc etc) weren't free countries... thanks for the update. Actually Taiwan is under the control of China now. We tried to intervein a few years back, but they said to STFU, and we wisely acquiesced. Japan is one of the FEW countries worse than we are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
