Why are so many American jobs being shipped overseas?

[PhreeZone 20]

I've been directly asked what I make currently and my comp package. Granted the figures were subject to rapid inflation... but in IT management its extremely common. HR here flat out asks what you are making and would like to make to get a judge your attitude. I've seen excellent canidates turned down for an interview since they were expecting like a 15-20% raise to leave thier old company. Something like a 3-5% is considered low and 5-7% is just right. One idiot analyst thought he could ask for a $20k raise when he was already making $65k and not be considered too much.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Trent 0]

So why on earth would someone who took a job as an interim measure to put food on their table tell their prospective new employer that they made as little as they did? Are you saying that someone who leaves a job to persue other interests that don't pay well cannot go back to earning nearly what they did when they left? I know more than a few people who've done this and are making more than ever now. Granted, if their idiots like the guy you knew, they're not going to get it. But to expect that they have no chance of at least earning average industry pay doesn't seem plausible.

Oh, hello again!

[kallend 2,147]

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"The First Thing We Do, Let's Kill All the Lawyers", W.S., from Henry IV.

Except for me, my wife and one other lawyer. Hey, one lawyer will have no business. Give me one more, and business will boom!

BTW - I guess I was smart in choosing a profession that hasn't been outsourced.

I understand that demand for physics professors in old Blighty is small, which has necessitated the migration of many to the US, where they can be found near Chicago ghettos. STOP BRITISH OUTSOURCING OF PHYSICS PROFESSORS TO THE US!!!!

Strictly speaking, not outsourced since the product of our labors does not return to the UK.

Just an export; the US should be pleased, the UK paid for our education and the US gets the benefit.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Unstable 9]

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America's workers deserve a more informative, less partisan debate on outsourcing. The negative impact of outsourcing on the economy and American employment has been greatly exaggerated, and the benefits of outsourcing almost entirely ignored.

I couldn't agree more. Outsourcing is shunned and is often the topic of fierce political debate - I believe as a result of "outsourcing", there are more jobs available to the american people. It allow companies to expand and grow beyond what they were previously able, and it allows for greater economic growth within the United States. I'm all for free trade.

=========Shaun ==========

[billvon 3,112]

> I believe as a result of "outsourcing", there are more jobs available to
>the american people.

False by definition; outsourcing is replacement of american jobs with foreign labor. You only grow american jobs if you create new jobs that are NOT outsourced.

>It allow companies to expand and grow beyond what they were previously
> able, and it allows for greater economic growth within the United States.

That is most likely true, but do not confuse a company's profit growth with employment. My company would do pretty well in the short term (i.e. stockholders would make out well) if they fired everyone but the laywers and just made money on patent royalties - but there would be 4000 fewer people employed.

[Jib 0]

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That is most likely true, but do not confuse a company's profit growth with employment. My company would do pretty well in the short term (i.e. stockholders would make out well) if they fired everyone but the laywers and just made money on patent royalties - but there would be 4000 fewer people employed.

You company would fire you and everyone else if you were not making it money than without you. Don't confuse capitalism with philanthropy.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[billvon 3,112]

>You company would fire you and everyone else if you were not making
>it money than without you.

Nope! Not all companies are so blind as to follow only the most financially beneficial path. If that were true, there would be no such thing as (say) Carnegie Hall. Some companies are guided by morals other than just profit.

>Don't confuse capitalism with philanthropy.

I don't; don't confuse successful capitalism with employment, either. "Having a strong company" and "having lots of employees" are not synonymous, nor are they antonymous. I am fortunate to work at a company that places emphasis on more than just the bottom line.

[Jib 0]

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Not all companies are so blind as to follow only the most financially beneficial path. If that were true, there would be no such thing as (say) Carnegie Hall. Some companies are guided by morals other than just profit.

back before taxes, the wealthy were expected to be patrons of the arts and many still are today. It has nothing to do with profit. Carnefie Hall is also a poor example because rarely do for-profit corporations have "friends" who give them money. There are two different purposes for the organizations: business and art.

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I don't; don't confuse successful capitalism with employment, either. "Having a strong company" and "having lots of employees" are not synonymous, nor are they antonymous. I am fortunate to work at a company that places emphasis on more than just the bottom line.

Many companies do things to keep productive employees happy. It may cost a little more, but positively affects the bottom line in the long run. Businesses are driven by profit. They don't pay you to lose them money.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[billvon 3,112]

>Businesses are driven by profit. They don't pay you to lose them money.

Enron was driven by profit. Good companies are driven by a few other things, like integrity, humanity etc. Sometimes, even though these are costly in the short term, they pay off in the long term. Sometimes they don't pay off at all, but the people running the company (and even, sometimes, their shareholders) see the value in their actions.

I can think of many people who have been kept on here and at other companies who, for whatever reason, are no longer useful to the company, but the company feels it owes them support for whatever reason. Capitalism doesn't always determine what happens - which is a good thing.

[Jib 0]

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Enron was driven by profit.

So is organized crime. Don't mix criminal activity with business.

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I can think of many people who have been kept on here and at other companies who, for whatever reason, are no longer useful to the company, but the company feels it owes them support for whatever reason. Capitalism doesn't always determine what happens - which is a good thing.

Keeping on "Pops" who made the company a lot of cash over the years does benefit the company. People like you who have many years to work are less likely to leave if they think there will be a future there for them until they retire. Unfortunately, many companies like to force people out when they get older for a variety of reasons and replace them with younger blood and in turn, the upcoming stars get hired away because there is no reason for loyality. But, there is little than can be done when your factory produces 8-tracks and never planned for the future.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[rehmwa 2]

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>False by definition; outsourcing is replacement of american jobs with foreign labor. You only grow american jobs if you create new jobs that are NOT outsourced.

Disagree - Outsourcing is replacement of a specific country's jobs with foreign labor.

If you are Japanese, American jobs are created by outsourcing. (Americans are foreigners to a lot more countries than the one where we aren't foreigners - by definition)

Cripes, you guys are so America centric - There is a whole world out there and your country isn't the center of the freakin' universe.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

Well, I try to think of myself as not being too nationalistic. But when talking about outsourcing of jobs I could really care less if Germany outsources to France. What has an impact on me and the economy where I live is the issue.

[kallend 2,147]

The US economy depends on having highly paid households.

Tha majority of households depend on income from work, rather than from investments.

Outsourcing is a leveling of the world's labor markets.

Leveling brings up the lowest, and brings down the highest.

The only way for the US to justify being above average in a global marketplace is to have an above average workforce. However, the US does not have a monopoly on intelligent people, and it has a mediocre K-12 education system. Even if there were the will to change it, it will still take a generation or two. Even the higher education system is average at the bachelor level and only becomes world class at the graduate level. And about 50% of students in US graduate schools are from overseas.

In the short and medium term, how can outsourcing be good for the US? Do we want our workers to have a standard of living like those in PRC or Mexico?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

But you do care if Germany outsources to the US.

As far as Germany outsourcing to France - if that results in less expensive German goods which you desire to purchase, then maybe you do care and don't even realize it.

It is a global economy even when looked at in the most simplified terms by the most non-nationalistic person of any country.

And I still don't understand how we can't be concerned with outsourcing to poor countries (low labor rate) and how it improves their economies.

Politically - Those opposed to outsourcing:
1 - would deny outsourcing to country "B"
2 - then will notice that country "B" is having a difficult economic time then
3 - will demand we use taxes to provide aid to country "B"

At least with outsourcing we get a return on our investment in Country "B". Euphorians just can't link, only look at a series of conflicting short term gratifications and then pat themselves on the back.

I still see most of these arguments as just partisan prat.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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In the short and medium term, how can outsourcing be good for the US? Do we want our workers to have a standard of living like those in PRC or Mexico?

Good points all, prof.

As far as the last paragraph quoted, that's the point, those opposed to outsourcing will need to realize that short term or long term, it's a very selfish position on a world scale. I have no issue with that provided they don't sugar coat it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

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As far as Germany outsourcing to France - if that results in less expensive German goods which you desire to purchase, then maybe you do care and don't even realize it.

The cost basis realization of cheaper German imports is nowhere near as important as a good overall salary. It's much easier to shop for goods globally than shop for jobs globally.

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And I still don't understand how we can't be concerned with outsourcing to poor countries (low labor rate) and how it improves their economies.

Because it depends on the country and who gets the benefit of that improvement. If it's a country where the standard of living of the workers getting jobs improves and they become bigger consumers, that's good. If it's a country where the gov't and the elite get the benefit and the workers just get to work 12 hours in a factory instead of 12 hours farming, and continue to live hand to mough, it's not.

[PhillyKev 0]

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As far as the last paragraph quoted, that's the point, those opposed to outsourcing will need to realize that short term or long term, it's a very selfish position on a world scale. I have no issue with that provided they don't sugar coat it.

Not entirely true. Opposing outsourcing to communist China is vastly different than opposing outsourcing to Canada or Ireland.

[PhillyKev 0]

Back to the original question, why jobs are shipped overseas, I believe this sums it up.

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Carson says he was eager to tap the firm's "$5-an-hour database engineers."

of course it does have its drawbacks...

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Carson's experience highlights the reality that the cheapest IT labor is often found in countries with tenuous political and economic stability.

Offshored Work Halted By Ukraine Unrest

[AndyMan 7]

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False by definition; outsourcing is replacement of american jobs with foreign labor.

I disagree. Nothing in the definition of outsourcing implies America as the source. Ample American jobs are outsourced to India. Ample Indian jobs are outsourced to Canada. Ample Canadian jobs are outsourced to the US.

Free trade isn't just about shipping stuff without duties applied. Businesses have figured out that its also about jobs, and its about people.

Unemployment caused by shifting industrial pradigms (midwestern steel mills, for example) should not be confused with unemployment caused by cyclical contraction (java geeks). All job losses are not created equal.

Trade in goods AND labour is a good thing, which generates more jobs than it costs.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

This topic made me remeber this story:

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,11460538%5e15306%5e%5enbv%5e15306,00.html

SOUTHERN India's Kerala state plans to create a 400-hectare zone called "Smart City," where technology companies from around the world will be invited to set up operations, an official said.

The area, outside Cochin city, would include office space, residences, schools and an entertainment complex, Kerala's Industry Minister P. K. Kunjalikutty said.
The zone would include software developers and call centres - two of the Indian economy's fastest growing sectors.

"Smart City ... will be an exclusive IT zone where foreign companies can easily set up shop without any stringent formalities of registration and licensing," Mr Kunjalikutty said.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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So why on earth would someone who took a job as an interim measure to put food on their table

I currently am working with an analyst that was making $3000/week before he was let go. No one will hire him at significant lesser pay because they know he will leave as soon as he gets another job.

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Are you saying that someone who leaves a job to persue other interests that don't pay well cannot go back to earning nearly what they did when they left?

There isn't a chance I could go back into fulltime IT Admin and ask for the same salary or billing I once demanded. The market has changed over the last two years and my skills are rusty despite the free training classes I have taken. I am still in the IT industry and still know my stuff, but when I was looking for a new job a few months back no one wanted to hire me for a tech spot again - even with the network I have.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[happythoughts 0]

From 2000-2003, I worked a 2 3/4 year contract with ATT - Global Billing Platform group. Feb of 2003, they laid off 72 of 77 software people and outsourced it to IBM.

(Note - it was originally outsourced to IBM for several million dollars a year. Then, brought in-house to save money. It did. Then they sent it to IBM again. )

Anyway, on last Friday, all the project people got together for dinner/drinks. We discussed our current work locations.

One guy was at Household Finance. They were told that all IT development is to be offshored. Only business analyst functions will remain. (How long will those last? Of course, once that goes, so do the management jobs with it.)

Not just "new" or "emerging" technologies, but all software development, including legacy system Mainframe stuff like CICS and COBOL. There is bunches of unemployed mainframe people in the US. Therefore, any argument about "not having high enough skill levels" is total BS.

It is being offshored for the rate.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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(Note - it was originally outsourced to IBM for several million dollars a year. Then, brought in-house to save money. It did. Then they sent it to IBM again. )

IBM has been doing that for some time - when I was working for them in the late 90s they forced everyone in one dept into retirment, then hired them as consultants with the company that group created, then let those consultants go and then hired them back on as IBM employees again (which had them earning a paycheck and a pension from the same company). This all happened in just one year!

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One guy was at Household Finance. They were told that all IT development is to be offshored. Only business analyst functions will remain. (How long will those last? Of course, once that goes, so do the management jobs with it.)

Household was purchased by a Japanese company about two-three years ago - the fate of everyone in that company has been suspect for some time. There has never been a public plan of who will stay or who will go in any department.

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Not just "new" or "emerging" technologies, but all software development, including legacy system Mainframe stuff like CICS and COBOL. There is bunches of unemployed mainframe people in the US. Therefore, any argument about "not having high enough skill levels" is total BS.
It is being offshored for the rate.

We presented a proposal to the Dept of Labor showing a growth in IT jobs in IL over the last four years and a total predicted growth of 75% in Networking and 84% growth in Applications. However, old skillsets, easy skillsets (HTML and web design) and entry level jobs are almost non-existant. (there are still some out there - a major consulting firm is interviewing all of our entry level Java students) Softskill jobs are hard to find as well (Sys Analysts, PM, etc). Unless you already have a background in OO programming you are too far behind the curve to get a job now.

What does this mean? If you were not proactive in upgrading your skillset in areas that can easily be shipped offshore you are in trouble. Most of the larger firms are sending stuff offshore and its the small and medium size companies that are doing the hiring (at a lower salary) and they do not have the infrastructure to do on the job training or allow for a learning curve - they want someone that can hit the ground running. If you are in networking you are better off, somewhat. These jobs tend to be staying here but there is a flood of talent in the entry to midlevel market and not enough jobs to go around.

The market is tough - and I doubt it will go back to the way it was. The jobs are there, but only if you have the right skillset, experience and the right amount of luck/timing.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....