Ron 10 #26 December 1, 2004 QuoteBut only the 3 that agree with your position while ignoring the rest, right? OK, so what is my position? Since you know it so well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #27 December 1, 2004 I'm assuming you're against it, otherwise you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. But I can't read minds and I'm basing that on the fact that you are arguing with people who support the bill. You don't seem to address the issue, just complaining that others are complaining. But then you keep saying you put your trust in the members of congress who actually vote on it, but that would lead me to believe you're in favor of it since most of them are. So you tell me what your position is? You oppose the bill because 3 congressmen do, or you support the bill and are only arguing with others who do because they support it for a different reason than you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #28 December 1, 2004 QuoteI'm assuming you're against it That is far different than knowing it...you know the story about assume right? QuoteBut I can't read minds and I'm basing that on the fact that you are arguing with people who support the bill No, I am trying to understand how you can support this bill being rushed but on other bills you think that was a bad idea. I bet plenty of folks thought the PA was a good idea...Then they changed thier minds later. I'd rather Congress take the time to get it right the first time. This bill has a few good points, and some that are maybe not good ideas....Id rather Congress take the time to do it right than just pass it in a hurry and maybe get people killed in the process..... But you and others would rather they just pass it and not worry about the problems that could happen with it....That is until you start to bitch about it later. THAT is my issue...You claim the PA was passed to fast, but when people try to not let that happen again, you bitch that they are not fast enough. Sensenbrenner not wanting states to give illegals DL is a good idea. Hell, even Quade thinks so. Maybe its not enough to stall the bill, but in time that will get added and passed, or it will get thrown out. Hunter's fears about how the flow of intel might get screwed and risk the lives of troops is VERY valid. But I guess you would just rather pass the bill and then after troops get killed go back and blame the bill in hindsight. How much power the new director is a BIG concern he will have close to 80 BILLION at his control...And how he uses that, and who he answers to is a BIG DOT DEAL. But I guess you would rather they not worry about that, pass the bill and then later you can bitch about how he has to much power....Ya know like how you bitch about Rumsfield and Ridge now. I'd rather they take the time and pass the best thing they can the first time....Of course you will find something to bitch about...Like how long it took to pass."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #29 December 1, 2004 Quote So the PA was bad and it was passed to fast. The PA was a kneejerk reaction. Many people asked to have time to read it and go over it some more, but it was rushed to a vote with very heavy pressure from the White House. Most members voted on it without reading the entire thing. The PA is a combination of several bills that had failed in the past. Those that had an agenda had those measures attached to the PA. I haven't done enough reading on the current reform to have an opinion on it._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 December 1, 2004 QuoteThe PA was a kneejerk reaction Some say this is as well....It just took longer to jerk. QuoteMany people asked to have time to read it and go over it some more, but it was rushed to a vote with very heavy pressure from the White House And now people want to have the time to read and question THIS bill...While ignoring the preasure form the White House. I think thats a good thing, but others (Who seem to be the same ones bitching about the PA act) are bitching that its taking to long....I find that funny. QuoteMost members voted on it without reading the entire thing. Who's fault is that? Would you rather this bill get passed the same way? QuoteThe PA is a combination of several bills that had failed in the past And a good number of this bill is ideas that never were passed before...Some good, some bad, some with unknown problems....Like I said I think its a good thing that it does not rush through. QuoteI haven't done enough reading on the current reform to have an opinion on it And I have not read the entire thing either...But the three questions so far, two are big enough that I don't want it passed without them answered. One is not a deal breaker to me. I would like to know how the intel is going to get to the troops...I would hate to have soldiers die cause some nice bit of intel was sitting on the wrong desk. I would like to know how much power this new positon is going to have....I would hate to create ANOTHER level of BS that feeds on itself. DL for illegals....I don't like the idea, but I would not let it stop the train. But Congress does this all the time, they attach 4 or 5 things and they really only want 3 of them passed. The other 2 they bargain with."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #31 December 1, 2004 QuoteNo, I am trying to understand how you can support this bill being rushed Who's rushing it? It's been in the works for over a year. PA was passed in less than a month. QuoteBut you and others would rather they just pass it and not worry about the problems that could happen with it.... Now you are the one assuming. QuoteSensenbrenner not wanting states to give illegals DL is a good idea. Hell, even Quade thinks so. So do I, but tacking that unrelated line item onto this bill is hardly a good reason to stop passage of the rest of it. The main reason this bill isn't being passed isn't because congress is worried about the ramifications. It's because a couple of congressmen want to jam their own pork onto the end of it. Whether your or I agree that pork should be included doesn't change the fact that they are holding up the passage of a bill that has been thoroughly vetted in order to further their own agenda. The differences between this bill and the PA are huge and I can't figure out why you keep making the comparison. For someone that seems to have a problem with bitching, you sure bitch a lot about it. Your constant claims that people are just bitching for the hell of it are tiresome. I'd be more than happy to not have anything to bitch about, I don't go searching for it. But when it's smacking you in the face constantly, there's not much way around it. I may be bitching, but I'm bitching about the gov't doing things I don't agree with. You just bitch about other posters having a difference of opinion than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #32 December 1, 2004 Quote And now people want to have the time to read and question THIS bill...While ignoring the preasure form the White House. I think thats a good thing, but others (Who seem to be the same ones bitching about the PA act) are bitching that its taking to long....I find that funny. Like I said - I don't know much about this reform. I've heard the talking heads on the news networks claim this wasn't a rushed bill, and others are calling for more discussion. I am not against further communication for a bill that would create a bigger gov't. That alone has me thinking the pause is a good thing. Due to all the noise on this, I will have to sit down and read it along with who didn't vote for it and why. I wish this had happened for the PA as well._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 December 1, 2004 QuoteWho's rushing it? It's been in the works for over a year. PA was passed in less than a month. Some bills take YEARS to pass...you wanting it NOW is rushing it. And I rather it be right, than done in a hurry and it be fucked up. QuoteSo do I, but tacking that unrelated line item onto this bill is hardly a good reason to stop passage of the rest of it. What about the other two issues? Nothing to worry about? QuoteThe main reason this bill isn't being passed isn't because congress is worried about the ramifications. It's because a couple of congressmen want to jam their own pork onto the end of it You have proof, or are you just ASSUMING again? QuoteThe differences between this bill and the PA are huge and I can't figure out why you keep making the comparison. Cause you say the PA was done to fast and was messed up, but you think this is perfect and to slow....I find that funny. Quote Your constant claims that people are just bitching for the hell of it are tiresome. As is your constant bitching about everything. QuoteBut when it's smacking you in the face constantly, there's not much way around it. How is this smacking you in the face? You would rather it be rushed and be possibly fucked up...I'd rather the members of Congress do the job we hired them to do and try to get it right....Ya know instead of just pass it and we all have to deal with the problems of it later. QuoteI may be bitching, but I'm bitching about the gov't doing things I don't agree with. You just bitch about other posters having a difference of opinion than you. And I'm bitching about how you slam the government for doing one thing, and then slam them for not doing it in another case. So the Governmet is only OK if you agree with it no matter what facts there are in the situation. Passing the PA fast was bad, Taking the time to make sure this bill is not fucked up is bad...Just cause you say so."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #34 December 1, 2004 They are two different issues....two different sets of circumstances, and cover two different areas. There's no valid comparison that can be made between them. It's like saying...I can't believe you didn't want chicken for dinner last night, but today, you have no problem eating lobster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 December 1, 2004 QuoteThey are two different issues....two different sets of circumstances, and cover two different areas. There's no valid comparison that can be made between them. They are both bills in Congress. You bitched about the first one being passed to fast without considering what the downsides were. You are bitching about the second one not being passed fast enough and don't seem to care about the possible downsides. Thats two seperate stances of the same type of problem. The only thing both have in common are that you have found a way to blame republicans for both issues."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #36 December 1, 2004 QuoteThe only thing both have in common are that you have found a way to blame republicans for both issues. Really? When did I do that? Democrats are just as guilty of passing PA without reviewing it thoroughly. And the vast majority of Republicans are supporting this bill. You're looking for a partisan argument where one doesn't exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #37 December 1, 2004 QuoteBut only the 3 that agree with your position while ignoring the rest, How do you know its only 3? There has not yet been a full vote... If it is only 3, then it is 3 that are in the right positions to block a bill, and they are in those positions because their peers put them there, presumable for their judgement and leadership abilities (I know there is politics and senority involved too) The Speaker of the House could bring it to a vote, but he hasn't... Perhaps he has reservations about the bill in its current form. You mentioned in another post that this has been ongoing for a year... well it hasn't... the 9-11 report made its recommendations in July, and the bill was introduced at the end of September, so this has only been in the works for a little over 2 months. I think holding it up the the driver's license thing is inappropriate. While I think such legislation is a good idea, Driver's Licenses have nothing to do with intel reform, and the issue should be addressed with its own legislation. EDIT TO ADD: There is a bunch of other crap that does not belong in an Intel Reform bill... stuff that belongs in revisions of the PA, and/or their own bills. Authority over military intelligence programs, particularly at the joint and tactical levels, are something quite different. The 9-11 Comm. Report recommendation for the NID specifically called for Joint and Tac. intel to be unaffected by their suggested reform... The bill specifically puts those two items under a joint responsibility of the NID and SECDEF... Tasking authority not even addressed, which has the real possibility of a suit in Washington telling a battlefield commander that they cannot have the resources they need... that is a good reason to kick this bill back into conference. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 December 1, 2004 QuoteReally? When did I do that? Democrats are just as guilty of passing PA without reviewing it thoroughly. And the vast majority of Republicans are supporting this bill. You're looking for a partisan argument where one doesn't exist. You have said time and time again how you blame the PA on Bush. You are blamming the 3 repubs that have problems with this bill on holding it up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #39 December 1, 2004 QuoteYou have said time and time again how you blame the PA on Bush. I have? QuoteYou are blamming the 3 repubs that have problems with this bill on holding it up. And I'm praising the republicans who support it. Like I said, you're looking for a partisan fight where there isn't one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 December 1, 2004 Quote Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have said time and time again how you blame the PA on Bush. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have? From you: QuoteThis is the kind of victory that our president should be touting. A victory that helps to insure freedom, liberty and lack of government oppression. Problem is, it's the opposite of what the current president wants, so you'll never hear him portray it that way. Part of the Patriot Act, a central plank of the Bush Administration's war on terror, was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge on Wednesday. QuoteHowever, after everyone passed that horrible piece of knee jerk legislation, the reality of it sank in and some started coming to their senses and oppose it. Bush is still pushing for it while you lable those opposing it as flip floppers. So tell me, who is to blame if it continues? QuoteNo argument there. Slight difference is that the Senate knee jerk reacted and passed a horrible bill they didn't read. Bush is the one who wrote the horrible bill. Do I need to go on?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #41 December 1, 2004 Nope...knew I said those things. Just wanted to see if you were that eager to dig them up, and true to form, you dove right in. You want to tell me how that equates to blaming "republicans" for it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 December 1, 2004 QuoteNope...knew I said those things. Just wanted to see if you were that eager to dig them up, and true to form, you dove right in. You want to tell me how that equates to blaming "republicans" for it? Gee if you can't see it, I am not going to waste my time....And I have a great deal of time to waste, so that says something."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #43 December 1, 2004 QuoteAnd I have a great deal of time to waste, so that says something. ... Ok, I concede....it's all partisan even though both parties were/are behind both bills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
