flyingferret 0 #101 November 22, 2004 Goodness gracious....just when I was trying to be objective. Last time I checked physics relied very heavily on math, and physics problems could be worked on paper. Are you trying to say that engineers go play with steel to test it before building anything? I though all those kind of figures, specs, load ratings, etc were kept in mathematical format to allow design work on paper/computer, etc. I cannot believe the semantic tango going on here. It has nothing to do with 'apply'. It has to do with external forces that act upon an object. In the design/teaching/whatever you wish to call it phase, you work with a somewhat closed system. Could it possibly be acted upon by other forces in an unsheltered environment? If you really want to discard the analogy, fine, go for it. I was trying to unite viewpoints. Physics aside, people are not physics, and external influences are very hard to calculate.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #102 November 22, 2004 Just for clarification on some earlier posts in this thread. From the National Safety Council, data for 2001 in the USA: Total premature deaths (including floods, fires, tornados etc.) 160,099 All transportation accidents 47,788 Deaths due to firearm discharge 29,250 Deaths cause by medical "care" 3,021... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #103 November 22, 2004 QuoteGoodness gracious....just when I was trying to be objective. Last time I checked physics relied very heavily on math, and physics problems could be worked on paper. Are you trying to say that engineers go play with steel to test it before building anything? I though all those kind of figures, specs, load ratings, etc were kept in mathematical format to allow design work on paper/computer, etc. Apparently you are not very well informed about what goes on in engineering education these days.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #104 November 22, 2004 You are right, for the first time in this thread, I am not. In fact as I stated, my education is in information systems, the study of how systems are built, respond and produce output. However, I certainly will not be learning about engineering today, because rather than responding to anything I have said, mostly without prejudice I might add, you continue to respond with quick retorts rather than define anything that might resemble a documented opinion.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #105 November 22, 2004 Quotereal world, on the south side of Chicago So, professor, what makes the South side of Chicago any more or less real than College Station, or any other place? While aggies might seem like they are from some sort of Bizzaro world ( for all the aggies), College Station is quite real. If you have places that the police won't go, and EMS won't go, than you have big problems, and new gun laws won't fix them. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #106 November 22, 2004 How you just address where I am wrong rather than make quips about how I am obviously out of touch. Why don't you educate me, that is what you do right? Tell me how the classroom mirrors the applied engineering world. I am eager to know.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #107 November 22, 2004 QuoteDo you find the level of deaths caused by medical malpractice/mistakes acceptable? At what level would you find them unacceptable? ... and what would you do if you found those unacceptable? Fire all doctors? ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #108 November 22, 2004 QuoteYou are right, for the first time in this thread, I am not. In fact as I stated, my education is in information systems, the study of how systems are built, respond and produce output. However, I certainly will not be learning about engineering today, because rather than responding to anything I have said, mostly without prejudice I might add, you continue to respond with quick retorts rather than define anything that might resemble a documented opinion. 2 of the 8 criteria necessary for an accredited engineering program in the USA: These criteria were developed by practising engineers, not academics. We have to do what they want. ------------------------------------------------------- Criterion 3. Program Outcomes and Assessment Although institutions may use different terminology, for purposes of Criterion 3, program outcomes are intended to be statements that describe what students are expected to know or be able to do by the time of graduation from the program. Engineering programs must demonstrate that their graduates have: (a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering (b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data (c) an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs (d) an ability to function on multi-disciplinary teams (e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems (f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility (g) an ability to communicate effectively (h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global and societal context (i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning (j) a knowledge of contemporary issues (k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering practice. Each program must have an assessment process with documented results. Evidence must be given that the results are applied to the further development and improvement of the program. The assessment process must demonstrate that the outcomes of the program, including those listed above, are being measured. Criterion 4. Professional Component The professional component requirements specify subject areas appropriate to engineering but do not prescribe specific courses. The engineering faculty must assure that the program curriculum devotes adequate attention and time to each component, consistent with the objectives of the program and institution. Students must be prepared for engineering practice through the curriculum culminating in a major design experience based on the knowledge and skills acquired in earlier course work and incorporating engineering standards and realistic constraints that include most of the following considerations: economic; environmental; sustainability; manufacturability; ethical; health and safety; social; and political. The professional component must include: (a) one year of a combination of college level mathematics and basic sciences (some with experimental experience) appropriate to the discipline (b) one and one-half years of engineering topics, consisting of engineering sciences and engineering design appropriate to the student's field of study. The engineering sciences have their roots in mathematics and basic sciences but carry knowledge further toward creative application. These studies provide a bridge between mathematics and basic sciences on the one hand and engineering practice on the other. Engineering design is the process of devising a system, component, or process to meet desired needs. It is a decision-making process (often iterative), in which the basic sciences, mathematics, and the engineering sciences are applied to convert resources optimally to meet these stated needs. (c) a general education component that complements the technical content of the curriculum and is consistent with the program and institution objectives.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #109 November 22, 2004 Quote2 of the 8 criteria necessary for an accredited engineering program in the USA: These criteria were developed by practising engineers, not academics. We have to do what they want. Ah, so academia has to follow what folks in the real world says to teach in their classroom then...I seem to remember seeing that said somewhere else in this thread. Since you have still refused to answer my question on multipul occasions during this thread, I'll take this post as your answer. Thank you.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #110 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuotereal world, on the south side of Chicago So, professor, what makes the South side of Chicago any more or less real than College Station, or any other place? While aggies might seem like they are from some sort of Bizzaro world ( for all the aggies), College Station is quite real. J Re-read the thread. I didn't write anything negative about College Station. I wrote that someone from College Station shouldn't be lecturing someone from Chicago about the "real world". Only one person has accused another of not being in the "real world", and that accuser was AggieDave, and he continues to do it..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #111 November 22, 2004 QuoteI didn't write anything negative about College Station. I wrote that someone from College Station shouldn't be lecturing someone from Chicago about the "real world". So you implied that someone from College Station wouldn't know about the real world... It would be handy if you spent more time arguing against the argument instead of persuing the person making the argument.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #112 November 22, 2004 So, these are the criteria that the credited body of engineers in practice impose to verify that a student in fact may enter said body. It would seem like that verifies that school is practice. In any case, I have a job in the real world, a girlfriend in the real world, and my stomach is getting really hungry. All that combined, I am getting really tired of this thread.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #113 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteI didn't write anything negative about College Station. I wrote that someone from College Station shouldn't be lecturing someone from Chicago about the "real world". So you implied that someone from College Station wouldn't know about the real world... . No, you inferred that. I said exactly what I meant. That you have no right to make an attack on me based only on my profession, given where you are coming from.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #114 November 22, 2004 QuoteSo, these are the criteria that the credited body of engineers in practice impose to verify that a student in fact may enter said body. It would seem like that verifies that school is practice. In any case, I have a job in the real world, a girlfriend in the real world, and my stomach is getting really hungry. All that combined, I am getting really tired of this thread. You mean, like practising engineers, and doctors who practice medicine, and attorneys who practice law, all of whom were, of course, properly educated in universities by professors. I guess it's funny that people spend tens of thousands of dollars a year attending college, when so many of you think it's all unreal.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,131 #115 November 22, 2004 AggieDave, John, enough with the thinly veiled insults. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #116 November 22, 2004 Yep, now perhaps you begin to get it. College is not real, never has been. It is an entry point, it an opportunity to give you the tools you need to succeed. Typically the professional world presents challenges you never saw in school. Of course the academic world and the tools it imparts increase your ability to deal with the challenges. Let me just state so you don't assume and respond again...I never said I thought college was a bad idea. I just said it was not the real world, and assuming it is, IS a bad idea. In fact, had more of my profs realized that, I would have been better equipped to handle the transition. Despite all the lectures you hear for 4 years, what the boss thinks is not the same as the prof. The ability to reconcile the two is what tuly proves to save your ass; that is was the most valuable lesson in college. I guess it's funny that people who we spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to teach us while attending college are surprised when we tell them we found different views on the outside of the institution. One of the ironies of system I feel is truly broken. At least if your argument skills are at all representative of your collective viewpoint, I am less worried about any more guns being banned.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #117 November 22, 2004 And with that as a 2 minute warning, I vacate this thread.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #118 November 23, 2004 Bill, Due to the respect I have for you, I will let the thread be.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #119 November 23, 2004 QuoteAggieDave, John, enough with the thinly veiled insults. I have not insulted anyone in this thread. I have been under constant attack for not being in the "real world".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,131 #120 November 23, 2004 >I have not insulted anyone in this thread. If you think everything you've said is just fine . . . then this thread is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
