Hunting Rifles to be Banned...

[kallend 2,174]

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Quite right. They should scrap 19,999 of them and put just one effective one in their place.

Once again, you're not seeing the point.

The point is that one law or 20,000 laws doesn't get the job done, actual enforcement of the laws does. Just like all the other laws.

Drunks and those without licenses kill the most people while driving, there are laws against that, enforcement is the problem...the examples could continue for many more hours.

What didn't you understand about the word "effective"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,174]

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It was not I that lectured AD about being in the "real world", it was the other way around. I just drew attention to the absurdity of it. You should lose respect for him according to your logic.

Kallend,

You're blinded to the actual point of my comment.

The point is, with discussion you tend to take the stance "I'm right, you're wrong" without even attempting to see the other side of the arguement. Just as I would expect a prof to react and just as I've seen many non-liberal arts profs react.

The point was and still is, this is real life, this isn't your classroom. This can not be solved with textbooks on calculus and the laws of physics, its more complex then lecturing to your classroom and you acting like you're 100% right.

That is the point.

Then you have to go and loose your temper and then try to belittle the people that have agreed with myself and the majority of the others in this thread instead of looking at the other side of the arguement and even attempt to view it rationally. I would have expected much more from an academic.

My classroom is in the real world, on the south side of Chicago, about a mile from places the police won't go alone and paramedics won't go without a police escort. A place I have worked since before you were born. I teach future engineers how to design bridges that won't fall down and airplanes whose wings won't fall off.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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What didn't you understand about the word "effective"?

Man, I'm glad I've never had to take a class from you, its really sad having profs talk down to people instead of atleast attempting to educate them.


The law its self could be effective or not effective, that's not up to the law. As you worded, it would be an effective law. Good for the law, but its up to the enforcement, which is completely seperate from the law being effective or not.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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My classroom is in the real world, on the south side of Chicago, about a mile from places the police won't go alone and paramedics won't go without a police escort. A place I have worked since before you were born.

Oh, I'm quite sure the classroom is located in the real world, science hasn't quite figured out "holo-decks" yet, but once again you're simply trying to belittle people instead of seeing the point. Yelling won't help that.

Once again, my point is that inside the classroom, teaching class, the teaching environment is not the real world. Its academia. You're expected to be right otherwise you wouldn't be an effective teacher. However, when dealing with real world issues, not math and applied math to science, things are quite different then academia. Very different. As you have reminded everyone here today, yes you live in Chicago, so I would have expected someone in academia to see the difference between outside the classroom and inside the classroom.

EDIT:

Ah, you edited your post, so I'll respond to the edit as well.

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I teach future engineers how to design bridges that won't fall down and airplanes whose wings won't fall off.

Good. We need those things, but inside your classroom its still an excersize in academic theory as shown and proven by the real world experience accomplished outside your classroom.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,174]

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What didn't you understand about the word "effective"?

Man, I'm glad I've never had to take a class from you, its really sad having profs talk down to people instead of atleast attempting to educate them.


The law its self could be effective or not effective, that's not up to the law. As you worded, it would be an effective law. Good for the law, but its up to the enforcement, which is completely seperate from the law being effective or not.

Your argument applies to every single law, Federal and state, in the nation. Are you promoting anarchy, since no law can function effectively?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

I'm pretty sure it's the little mermaid.... God knows I listened to it enough when my daughter was going through the "Disney years"...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AggieDave 6]

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Are you promoting anarchy, since no law can function effectively?

At what point in the 4 1/2 years I've posted on DZ.com have you seen me state anything to that nature?

Since you were being rude and attempting to belittle me instead of arguing against my point, I was simply pointing out that there is a stark difference between having an effective law that is not effectively enforced and an effective law that is effectively enforced. There are many worthwhile gun laws on the books that are not effectively enforced.

For instance, felons can not own a handgun. How many now felons commit an act of violcene with a weapon they shouldn't have been allowed to have? Well, its an effective law, its just not effectively enforced.

See the point?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,174]

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My classroom is in the real world, on the south side of Chicago, about a mile from places the police won't go alone and paramedics won't go without a police escort. A place I have worked since before you were born.

Oh, I'm quite sure the classroom is located in the real world, science hasn't quite figured out "holo-decks" yet, but once again you're simply trying to belittle people instead of seeing the point. Yelling won't help that.

Once again, my point is that inside the classroom, teaching class, the teaching environment is not the real world. Its academia. You're expected to be right otherwise you wouldn't be an effective teacher. However, when dealing with real world issues, not math and applied math to science, things are quite different then academia. Very different. As you have reminded everyone here today, yes you live in Chicago, so I would have expected someone in academia to see the difference between outside the classroom and inside the classroom.

EDIT:

Ah, you edited your post, so I'll respond to the edit as well.

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I teach future engineers how to design bridges that won't fall down and airplanes whose wings won't fall off.

Good. We need those things, but inside your classroom its still an excersize in academic theory as shown and proven by the real world experience accomplished outside your classroom.

I spend 5 hours a week in my classroom, where I teach future engineers how to avoid catastrophic failures in things like bridges, ships, airplane structures and other unrealwordly things. That leaves 163 hours for the holodeck.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

So you agree that the classroom setting is a function of academic theory based on real world experiences?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,174]

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So you agree that the classroom setting is a function of academic theory based on real world experiences?

The university is the best way our civilization has yet discovered to pass on advanced knowledge from one generation to the next. If you have a better idea, I'll be glad to pass it along.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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The university is the best way our civilization has yet discovered to pass on advanced knowledge from one generation to the next. If you have a better idea, I'll be glad to pass it along.

Quit dancing around the question.

I asked if you agreed the classroom setting is a function of academic theory based on real world experiences.

I didn't ask if I thought it was a valid system or not. If I didn't think it was a valid system, I wouldn't be at a top university studying, I would be at a trade school or something else.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,174]

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The university is the best way our civilization has yet discovered to pass on advanced knowledge from one generation to the next. If you have a better idea, I'll be glad to pass it along.

Quit dancing around the question.

I asked if you agreed the classroom setting is a function of academic theory based on real world experiences.

I didn't ask if I thought it was a valid system or not. If I didn't think it was a valid system, I wouldn't be at a top university studying, I would be at a trade school or something else.

I don't understand your question. What is academic theory? I teach things like Newtonian mechanics (very useful for cars and airplanes and missiles and spacecraft) and quantum mechanics (without which we'd have no iPods and DVD players and internet) and thermodynamics (without which we'd have no jet engines). None of these cease to be valid once a student has graduated and becomes a professional engineer.

I hope you're not into this "it's only a theory" bit like the Creationists.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,600]

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In other words. That kind of statistic is meaningless. A gun is a tool that can be used to kill someone else. If you want to kill someone, you'll use whatever tool you can find.

That's true if you're determined to kill them. But if you're just really pissed, a little drunk, then a gun might just make it easy, where having to actually get close to them, risk getting hurt, and knife or beat them up just seem so not worth it.

A gun, particularly a pistol, makes it much easier and cleaner to act on those feelings. You can't competely burglar-proof a house -- a determined burglar can get in. And someone really determined to kill will do so. But some sort of control makes it a harder for the guy who's stopped by hassle factor.

No, it shouldn't be necessary. And if all those laws people say should be enforced were enforced (and enforceable, for that matter), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flyingferret 0]

Silly boy Dave...don't you know that asking for verification is the same as insinuating that you don't agree? It is a great argument tactic, and allows all kinds of political banter that avoid definitive statements that might be used for accountability later.

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All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, then I will reword the question and put it into context for you.

The purpose of this question is from my point that you treat discussions on the internet as your classroom setting. You cease to look at the argument and simply state its wrong then belittle the person or persons making the argument. Hence my comment that this is the real world not your classroom setting.

In your classroom setting (yes I know its in Chicago, next door to 18 crack houses and 20 gangs) as an engineering/physics prof you have to take that sort of stance. You're teaching theories (laws, whatever you wish to call them) that have come about from real world experience and are now being applied in a class room setting, hence academia, thus my distinction between the classroom and the real world.

In the real world there is not a black and white, there are only shades of grey. What proves to be white in one situation proves to be black in another, gun laws are a perfect example. Murder is wrong. Self defense can be seen as un-meditated murder by some, so should self defense be wrong?

That is how we ended up where we have in this thread.

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I hope you're not into this "it's only a theory" bit like the Creationists.

Proves my example and argument quite perfectly. Lets say I am a Creationist and believe that science is "only theory." Your statement would be quite belittling and insulting. It would be my right as an American to beleve that if I wished without insult and discrimination from you.

Once again, in your classroom you are supposed to be right, in the real world your opinion is not the word of law, even if its something you hold to be infallible in your own beliefs and it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against those whose opinions differ and it does not give you the right to attempt to intimidate them by insulting their intelligence.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingferret 0]

The point is that math in the classroom is an exercise. Applied math in a bridge is the real world. Yes, indeed you mostly likely must have the exercise first. But it has not actually been used to yet. It is very possible that an engineer does very well in class, then makes a mistake on a real world project, and the project fails.
I think that is an excellent analogy to legislation actually. "The best laid plans...." etc, etc. My particularly education is not engineering...rather it is in information systems. And I can tell you that any system is only as good as its outcomes. Any effective system must have a way to deal with negative feedback. What happens when a particular piece fails? When bad data is entered, etc? Surely in engineering you have provisions to a degree should the load exceed a spec? Because we all know murphy's law. So in the legislation world, what is the control process when people ignore the laws? Making more laws to ignore is not effective.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[mnealtx 0]

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That's true if you're determined to kill them. But if you're just really pissed, a little drunk, then a gun might just make it easy, where having to actually get close to them, risk getting hurt, and knife or beat them up just seem so not worth it.

My opinion.... someone with that poor a level of impulse control is going to be dangerous regardless of what he has in his hands...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PhillyKev 0]

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That's true if you're determined to kill them. But if you're just really pissed, a little drunk, then a gun might just make it easy, where having to actually get close to them, risk getting hurt, and knife or beat them up just seem so not worth it.

Ok, well then since my response was to her request for statistics, then please factor that in. Tell me, how many people have been killed with firearms where they would not have done the same thing with another weapon.

My point was that comparing all firearm homicides to all vehicular homicides is meaningless. Your introduction of additional mitigating factors makes it even more so.

[AggieDave 6]

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My opinion.... someone with that poor a level of impulse control is going to be dangerous regardless of what he has in his hands...

Yup. It won't matter if they have a gun, a stick, a knife, a bar stool, a steal toe boot...if they're like that, they will be a problem.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingferret 0]

Exactly....poor ability to isolate root cause.

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Locks only keep the honest people out

Besides without guns, the big people like dave would have to be body gaurds for us normal people, because brute strength would rule. That does not seem much fun. The point is...truly malicious people will always find a weapon. The challenge is making the risk involved so great, they choose not to for their own safety.

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All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[wmw999 2,600]

I'm using you for a launching point.

As far as its being someone with poor impulse control who's likely to get caught in that -- well duh. I'd like to keep the guns out of the easy hands of people with poor impulse control -- sounds logical. Make it a hassle, and then they'll have to think about it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,174]

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The point is that math in the classroom is an exercise. Applied math in a bridge is the real world. Yes, indeed you mostly likely must have the exercise first. But it has not actually been used to yet. It is very possible that an engineer does very well in class, then makes a mistake on a real world project, and the project fails.
I think that is an excellent analogy to legislation actually. "The best laid plans...." etc, etc. My particularly education is not engineering...rather it is in information systems. And I can tell you that any system is only as good as its outcomes. Any effective system must have a way to deal with negative feedback. What happens when a particular piece fails? When bad data is entered, etc? Surely in engineering you have provisions to a degree should the load exceed a spec? Because we all know murphy's law. So in the legislation world, what is the control process when people ignore the laws? Making more laws to ignore is not effective.

I don't teach math.

If you can give me one example "from the real world" where the laws of physics don't apply, I would be very interested to hear it. Do you fall up when you exit the plane on a skydive?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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Make it a hassle, and then they'll have to think about it.

It is a hassle. Especially since folks like that don't tend to have a clean criminal record.

Once again it comes down to enforcement. Do you think that the perps using handguns for crimes are walking down to the local gunshop and ploping down $1000 for a Kimber .45ACP? Nope, they're buying them off the street illegally. What can new laws do about that, its already illegal.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingferret 0]

I fully agree with you. And there are laws already there to do that, background checks, etc. The all started with the postulation that a gun owner doing an evil thing would result in further legislation.

As an honest question, with an open mind, keeping in mind that we already have waiting periods, background checks, etc.; what do you propose as an effective method to single out more 'people with bad impulse control' while at the same time, not presuming guilt without any prior record?

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All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[jakee 1,608]

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Lets say I am a Creationist and believe that science is "only theory." Your statement would be quite belittling and insulting. It would be my right as an American to beleve that if I wished without insult and discrimination from you.

If I was an American I wouldn't give up my right to insult you without a fight!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?