TheAnvil 0 #1 November 22, 2004 One on Democratic lunacy and another on the War on Terror. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #2 November 22, 2004 QuoteOne on Democratic lunacy and another on the War on Terror. No, they aren't excellent at all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #3 November 22, 2004 Here is an article that I like better. It's about how conservatives and liberals piss each other off. Well, besides being narrow-minded yokels or immoral atheists, that is . All that rancorous put-down-y stuff might sound fun, but it only ever preaches to the choir. What's the fun in that? Much better to, if not convince a heathen, at least have them be able to see your point of view Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #4 November 22, 2004 QuoteOne on Democratic lunacy and another on the War on Terror. I thought both articles, but the second inparticular were very well written. I obviously can tell that the second article was written with a bias to the right, however, the author does make some valid and well thought out points. I liked the line that describes how our enemy know the consequences and the real reasons we are in Iraq, yet most of the USA does not. That is very true!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 November 22, 2004 QuoteI liked the line that describes how our enemy know the consequences and the real reasons we are in Iraq, yet most of the USA does not. That is very true!!!!!! There's a reason why Americans don't know why we're really there. It's because our administration lied to us from the beginning about why we are there. You keep telling a population for two years that we are there because of terrorism and WMD's, then they will believe it. So, this article says we are there to clean up the block, and the rest of the Middle East will follow suit. Hmmm. Just what I posted last July. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=553710#553710 So, now it's acceptable to say why we're really there. Too bad the administration lied so effectively so as to convince the American people of the need to go. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #6 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteI liked the line that describes how our enemy know the consequences and the real reasons we are in Iraq, yet most of the USA does not. That is very true!!!!!! There's a reason why Americans don't know why we're really there. It's because our administration lied to us from the beginning about why we are there. You keep telling a population for two years that we are there because of terrorism and WMD's, then they will believe it. So, this article says we are there to clean up the block, and the rest of the Middle East will follow suit. Hmmm. Just what I posted last July. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=553710#553710 So, now it's acceptable to say why we're really there. Too bad the administration lied so effectively so as to convince the American people of the need to go. I don't think that is it at all..... Again, you bring up "Lying". I swear, you guys just love to say that. Might I remind you the senate lied then, Kerry Lied, the house lied.... There was faulty intel on the subject. I still believe WMD's were a strong motivation for action in the Middle east, But like I also stated in past posts, there was more than one reason to go over there. As I have said before, going into Iraq is good for several reasons..... The illogical crazies kept saying it was for OIL!!!! We all know it wasn't for oil :-) But that is what you get from the uninformed. Anyway, when Iraq becomes a relatively civilized country, you can count on US troops maintaning a base there for a very long time. Much like we have in Japan and Germany. This will have a very important impact on the rest of the Middle east. THere will be a US influence in the region. God forbid another major conflict occurres in the region we will have a place to position and deploy from. THis was one of the major problems invading the first time, and also possibly a reason the insugency was worse than intisipated. Arguements have been made that if Turkey had allowed the US to move through its northern border and we pinched the country from the North and south, we could have rooted out a majority of the insurgensy coming across the border of Iraq. Anyway, getting a bit winded here. There is a duel purpose, I have never denigned that, but a year ago, few people wanted to talk about that. All they wanted to talk about was how we don't need a war for oil, or how Bush is the equivilent of Hitler.... Where are the "No war for Oil" people now? Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #7 November 22, 2004 You prove the brilliance of both Hume and Nietzche with regards to truth and convictions once again, John. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #8 November 22, 2004 A guy down the street was a real asshole, so I sent my big strong son to go live in his house. He'll be there a long time, so that I can have someone already there if his neighbor (also an asshole) kicks up. Why exactly is that OK? What if you run out of sons, or if someone else thinks you're an asshole? You'd better always have the biggest, strongest house on the block in that case. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #9 November 22, 2004 That's an interesting website/article... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #10 November 22, 2004 QuoteA guy down the street was a real asshole, so I sent my big strong son to go live in his house. He'll be there a long time, so that I can have someone already there if his neighbor (also an asshole) kicks up. Why exactly is that OK? What if you run out of sons, or if someone else thinks you're an asshole? You'd better always have the biggest, strongest house on the block in that case. Wendy W. Wendy, That is a slightly over simplified way to look at the situation. I know your smarter than that. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #11 November 22, 2004 Yeah, I agree. While I didn't find the first 2 article particularly enlightening, I like the tone of Wendy's link more. In essence, I'm a believer that we're all genuinely trying to do what we think is best for the country, regardless of where we stand on the political scale. Unfortunately, some people can't see past their own intollerance and it hurts us all. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #12 November 22, 2004 QuoteYou prove the brilliance of both Hume and Nietzche with regards to truth and convictions once again, John. You claimed they are excellent, I claim they aren't excellent. Apparently I have higher standards of excellence than you. That is all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #13 November 22, 2004 TheAnvil chuckles to himself and scratches his long JACKASS ears. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #14 November 22, 2004 It is oversimplified. But which of the complexities changes the basic nature of the situation? What makes it OK to force our way into another country? In 1990 we were asked to help defend an ally. Right now we decided the guy down the street is an asshole (and he WAS) and we're going to fix that. The problem is that we're going to run out of sons long before the world runs out of assholes. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #15 November 22, 2004 Wendy, let's pretend for a minute that the intel was right. Let's pretend there was an abundence of WMD. Then taking into consideration the things that SH was known to do such as paying for suicide bombers in Isreal. We know SH was an enabler for corruption and tourture and evil in the middle east. Would you still have sat back and done nothing. Knowing that the Oil-for-food program was a scam? Knowing the sactions on him by the UN were being circomevented? Knowing he still wanted to cause harm to the US if he could? Do not take offense... But some people, and I am including you in this statement, don't realize that things changed on Sept 11th, 2001. We needed to change our tactics on combating evil and terrorism world wide. Again, SH was an enabler, and his removeal does a few things. 1) if there had been WMD like the Intel suggested, it would have taken them out of his hand. 2)It gives democracy a chance in a part of the world that normally wouldn't have that chance. 3) In the long run our position in the region helps to keep the US safer than it would if we were not in the region. 4) enables us with a lot better intel than we had pre 9/11 by allowing us to infiltrate into the middle eastern countries easier. The major job of the US Gov is to keep us safe. And, int the opinion of the administration, that is exactly what they are doing. I happen to agree with them, you don't. It is really just a difference of opinion. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #16 November 22, 2004 Long-ass post warning Chris, you're supposing that a lot of things that looked unlikely in the first place had come true. Only the diehard anti-UN folks "knew" about oil-for-food a couple of years ago -- and some of them would outlaw clean air if the UN came out in favor of it. Only the folks engaged in serious venue-shopping really thought that Iraq had WMD in any quantity -- and just in case they were wrong, most of them were of the "it doesn't matter, we should squash them because of the principle of the thing." There weren't a lot of people who gave credence to the yellowcake story -- you had to really want to believe, and really want to go to war, to end up with that belief set. And it was never going to be as easy as they said -- there were a lot of (yes, mostly liberal) people who said so. You can't discount them just because they disagree. The world didn't change in 2001 -- our perception of our vulnerability changed. It would have changed in 1993 if the previous WTC plot had worked. What changed was our perception that we were so far away, and so strong, and so smart, that nothing could hurt us very significantly. It was an important realization, and it would have been good if we had taken that capital and continued to run with it like we did in Afghanistan. We were all of a sudden in the same boat with other countries -- in fact, we were slammed into that boat of vulnerability with an unimaginable violence. We ARE a target. And the bigger and more successful we are, the more that will be true for some folks. And the more arrogant we are, the more people we add to that core that dislike anything unlike them. The major job of the US government is not to keep us safe -- it can't do that. Once that becomes its major job, then the government can abrogate rights to do that; it can neglect other things to do that. And you know what -- we never were safe, and we never will be safe. What the government can do is reduce threat, and while being the biggest gorilla is one way, another is to have enough friends that someone will tell us when there is a threat. Microsoft is one of the biggest companies out there. They probably think they're completely unsinkable. Do you think they're unstoppable forever? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #17 November 22, 2004 QuoteLong-ass post warning Chris, you're supposing that a lot of things that looked unlikely in the first place had come true. Only the diehard anti-UN folks "knew" about oil-for-food a couple of years ago -- and some of them would outlaw clean air if the UN came out in favor of it. Only the folks engaged in serious venue-shopping really thought that Iraq had WMD in any quantity -- and just in case they were wrong, most of them were of the "it doesn't matter, we should squash them because of the principle of the thing." There weren't a lot of people who gave credence to the yellowcake story -- you had to really want to believe, and really want to go to war, to end up with that belief set. And it was never going to be as easy as they said -- there were a lot of (yes, mostly liberal) people who said so. You can't discount them just because they disagree. The world didn't change in 2001 -- our perception of our vulnerability changed. It would have changed in 1993 if the previous WTC plot had worked. What changed was our perception that we were so far away, and so strong, and so smart, that nothing could hurt us very significantly. It was an important realization, and it would have been good if we had taken that capital and continued to run with it like we did in Afghanistan. We were all of a sudden in the same boat with other countries -- in fact, we were slammed into that boat of vulnerability with an unimaginable violence. We ARE a target. And the bigger and more successful we are, the more that will be true for some folks. And the more arrogant we are, the more people we add to that core that dislike anything unlike them. The major job of the US government is not to keep us safe -- it can't do that. Once that becomes its major job, then the government can abrogate rights to do that; it can neglect other things to do that. And you know what -- we never were safe, and we never will be safe. What the government can do is reduce threat, and while being the biggest gorilla is one way, another is to have enough friends that someone will tell us when there is a threat. Microsoft is one of the biggest companies out there. They probably think they're completely unsinkable. Do you think they're unstoppable forever? Wendy W. Good post, and yes long. However I still disagree with a lot of it. First off, THe governments job is to keep us safe. It doesn't mean that they can stop any threat, but it does mean what there is a significant threat, it is their job to thwart it. About the OFF program. You are right and wrong. Yes, not everyone KNEW something was up, but most of the world suspected it. THe numbers were crunched, and SH's money had to be coming from somewhere. At the very least we knew aid money for food and medicine were going straight into his pockets, and the OFF program seemed to have some big leaks in it. ON WMDs. Quantity wasn't the issue. Quality, an intent on distribution, and a means to deliver were. The intent was there, and intel hinted at meetings in Iraq and Germany and other countries which lead to the thinking that SH was looking to move product. Now, the Itel was vauge at best in that regard, but we are dealing with a guy looking to hurt us. As you know one capable Nuke is as bad as 10, and the same could be said about Chem or Bio weapons. After the 93 bombing of the WTC, we didn't do too much to prevent attacks. We were not proactive in stopping threats. Then came 9/11/01. Many in the US said realized sitting back and waiting was a good plan. Some agree, some disagree. The world DID change in 2001, because the US began a policy of premtive strikes in instances of threats. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #18 November 22, 2004 Quote that things changed on Sept 11th, 2001 In response, our leaders have decided to change: 1) The American way of life 2) The American way of business 3) The American ideas of war and torture. The American was still standing after 9/11. It is our government that is shaking our very foundations... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #19 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuote that things changed on Sept 11th, 2001 In response, our leaders have decided to change: 1) The American way of life 2) The American way of business 3) The American ideas of war and torture. The American was still standing after 9/11. It is our government that is shaking our very foundations... The same could be said after Pearl Harbor was bombed and we went into WWII. Maybe you don't remember the stroies of Japaneese being put in internment camps, or us companies being banned from using ruber, or how US companies suffered becasue so many men had gone to fight the war and women were forced into the workplace. I question #3 though. You can't be that naive to believe that things worse than Abu Graib didn't happen in Korea, or Nam, or During WWII. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 November 22, 2004 QuoteMaybe you don't remember the stroies of Japaneese being put in internment camps, Are you using that as an example of justifiable actions by the gov't? I wasn't around, so I don't remember it, but I've read about it. And I've met someone who was in one of those camps. It is, in fact, a perfect example of why we should be even more vigilant at making sure our gov't doesn't decide to start arbitrarily arresting and detaining US citizens as they did then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #21 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteMaybe you don't remember the stroies of Japaneese being put in internment camps, Are you using that as an example of justifiable actions by the gov't? I wasn't around, so I don't remember it, but I've read about it. And I've met someone who was in one of those camps. It is, in fact, a perfect example of why we should be even more vigilant at making sure our gov't doesn't decide to start arbitrarily arresting and detaining US citizens as they did then. No, not as justifactation, but the statement was made that our country is doing really evil things. Not that i think what is going on is good or perfect, but we have done horrible things in the past, and I don't think what is going on now is as bad. If anything, due to the media coverage, acts of torture and mistreatment by US troops is probably less than in the past. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #22 November 22, 2004 QuoteIf anything, due to the media coverage, acts of torture and mistreatment by US troops is probably less than in the past. So, are you saying that the press exposing government actions is good for the American public and helps to protect our civil liberties? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #23 November 22, 2004 In many cases yes it can help. However, media, too can be corrupt and biased. So one must be careful on what wisdom we buy!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #24 November 22, 2004 QuoteHowever, media, too can be corrupt and biased. So can government. Paraphrased Thomas Jefferson quote: If given the choice between government without newspapers, or newspapers without government, I'll take the latter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #25 November 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteHowever, media, too can be corrupt and biased. So can government. Paraphrased Thomas Jefferson quote: If given the choice between government without newspapers, or newspapers without government, I'll take the latter. Yes I know..... That is why my post said "Media too can.." The "too" meant also.... so, the government was the other party I was refering to. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
