ChasingBlueSky 0 #76 November 19, 2004 I've said enough - lets hear your side now._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #77 November 19, 2004 QuoteQuote Apparently he thinks the only choice available is to either hide under a pile of coats or invade - so much for the creativity of the left. They do the tough stuff by suggesting "must be other alternatives". Actually providing that alternative is obvious beneath them. Well, instead of being critical - why don't you come up with something creative and educate us all on what should be done. Sorry, can't. I actually did vote for Bush. According to the media I'm an ignorant, uneducated (only up to a Masters in Engineering), religious zealot (agnostic), sheep (my biggest issue in any job is speaking up too much) that can't think for myself. I can't be creative until: 1 - I open my mind, 2 - evolve, 3 - be sensitive to the poor (all four of us kids were dirt poor and made our own way), 4 be sensitive to the downtrodden (as a nerd, I was pretty downtrodden). But If we do come up with an idea, let's collaberate on it. We'd be famous and popular. So, why don't you answer his question? If diplomacy fails, what are the alternatives? Serious question, if anyone can actually answer that, both the republicans and the democrats and the public would be grateful. It really is harder than to wait for problems to occur and Monday morning quarterback it to death. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #78 November 19, 2004 QuoteI've said enough - lets hear your side now. I don't have a side yet. I'm gathering opinions so I can educate myself to the various options available. Are you saying you aren't able to answer my question? I'm kind of surprised you are having so much trouble offering a solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #79 November 19, 2004 QuoteSorry, can't. I actually did vote for Bush. According to the media I'm an ignorant, uneducated (only up to a Masters in Engineering), Well, stop slacking off - my democratic boss has her PhD in it. Is Iran actually a threat to us? Do you really think they would let one bomb loose on us? How stupid would that be of them - do you think we would leave anything left of their country if they did? How many do you think they could actually hide from us anyhow - esp with the new spy program the CIA announced today? They will discover the same thing we have - that once you have them, you won't want to use them. We are having to rearrange our troop locations around the world just to support Iraq - and we are calling up people that were discharged over eight years ago....do you think we could wage a second front?? I don't. Do you think we would have any social security left when GW asks for another 90 billion or so to invade Iran? I don't. Do you think his four year plan to balance the budget would happen if we invaded? I don't. Do you think we would have anyone left over to leave at home to protect our country? I don't. Do you think that other countries would side with Iran against us? I do. Do you think that N Korea would take advantage of the situation while we were spread thin? I sure the hell do. Just due to logistics alone we wouldn't be able to invade. Therefore you have to try to make the agreement work, because if it doesn't it could bring this country to its knees. I wouldn't want the US to invade if they did produce nukes - let someone else be the police of the world this time._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #80 November 19, 2004 So what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #81 November 19, 2004 QuoteSo what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Do you think any of the radicals in this country can get access to such weapons?? Just in case you missed the story Bill posted the other day: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #82 November 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Do you think any of the radicals in this country can get access to such weapons?? Just in case you missed the story Bill posted the other day: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm It seems to be an apples and oranges situation. I may have missed in the article where it said the US govt. might supply weapons to domestic terrorists. Do you think Iran supports Hamas? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #83 November 19, 2004 QuoteSorry, can't. I actually did vote for Bush. According to the media I'm an ignorant, uneducated ..., religious zealot ..., sheep ...that can't think for myself Good points. Carry on... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #84 November 19, 2004 "So what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes?" I understand that it is only prudent to have a plan B, however, the diplomatic process has hardly started yet. If Iran contravenes proliferation agreements, I don't honestly know if they have signed up to any yet but they probably have (its early here so I may yet google a little), there is that whole cycle of sanctions, diplomacy, talks, trade agreements, aid bargaining, etc to get through. Without the UN, which most of you seem to despise, this will not be easy, there is no other forum to arrange this sort of thing. Unilateral action from America will be globally unpopular, further isolating the USA from the international community at a time when the USA really needs to be thinking about redressing its balance of trade issues, and rebuilding damaged alliances, whilst forging new agreements. Why are the right wing warmongers already discounting the diplomatic processes, have you guys no faith in the negotiating prowess of your recently elected leaders? Don't you think Dubbya is up to the job of convincing the international community to live peacefully with each other? If, after all the jawing has failed to produce agreeable results, then, I'm sad to say it, then more American blood will be shed. Probably some British blood too, if you can come up with reasonable justification. Are you guys really ready to sacrifice many more good and honourable people because you can't see eye to eye with Iran, are you ready to extend the Iraq situation to another country? Do you have the capacity to support the occupation of another country for an indefinite period. Are you ready to further divide a country that is struggling to mend the rift that has already opened internally? You have to give the diplomatic process a chance, and you have to put at least as much effort into it as you would into a war, that effort was sadly lacking pre Iraq invasion.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #85 November 19, 2004 QuoteApparently he thinks the only choice available is to either hide under a pile of coats or invade - so much for the creativity of the left. They do the tough stuff by suggesting "must be other alternatives". Actually providing that alternative is obvious beneath them. Brother, thats what they do...They sharp shoot anything you say, and claim that there is a betterway, but never say what that is. I got banned by Bill once for asking one of the regulars to expain his plan. They have plans, but they can't tell anyone them since they will dissapear in the light."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #86 November 19, 2004 Quotedo you think we could wage a second front?? It would be a third front, and yes it could be done. Quote Do you think we would have any social security left when GW asks for another 90 billion or so to invade Iran? How do you think SS would do if a Nuke took out LA, or NYC? QuoteDo you think we would have anyone left over to leave at home to protect our country? Very few countries could actually invade the US...That is old thinking. The new threat is a terrorist group wasting a city with an NBC weapon they got from a Government that is anti US. QuoteDo you think that N Korea would take advantage of the situation while we were spread thin? N.Korea would not do anything. No COUNTRY will do anything. Anyone in power with half a brain knows they can't compete against the US military and win. The two ways that the US could fall: 1. A global community imposes sanctions against the US. Cut off from Oil and all other imports the economy would crash. 2. A terroist group uses NBC weapons in the US to destroy one of more major cities. The kaos that follows could destroy the US. #1 is not likely to happen. Even if coutries wanted to, it is not likely to happen. #2 is the plan of several groups already, and one has already attacked us twice on US soil. So, we can ignore the threat of a terroist group attacking us on US soil, but the cost of that is HUGE. I am not saying we should invade any Country that we think has NBC weapons...But we do want to look closely at them. Sanctions should be tried first....But those sanctions will have to be global, and actually enforced...The UN oil of food disaster, France selling weapons to Iraq against those santions ect show that any sanction needs to be much better than before. I don't have faith in the UN to enforce anything they say. Quote I wouldn't want the US to invade if they did produce nukes - let someone else be the police of the world this time. Problems with that: 1. The US is the major military power in the world. Not many other countires COULD do it. 2. The US is the major military force in the UN. Without the US the UN has no real teeth. 3. The US is the country in danger the most....Well some could argue that Israel is, but we are #1 I think since without the US's support Israel would have fallen long ago. So we have the most to lose if a terrorist country gets a Nuke. The more Nukes out there...The bigger the chance that one will be stolen, bought ect and used to hit America. So, like it or not WE are the ones with them most to lose, so WE are the ones that will have to do something. Now that something starts with REAL, ENFORCED sanctions...But it could lead to war. If you remove the risk of war, the sanctions have no chance of working. As for your claim that sanctions worked in Iraq...It may be true that SH could no longer make WMD's...But he still never complied with the resolution SHOWING he had none and SHOWING what he did with the ones he did have. So he was still in violation of the UN. All he ever had to do was show it, and we would have had no reason. If the UN puts sanctions against Iran, they need to enforce them. They so far have shown that they will not. I would rather not see us get involved with another conflict, but the cost of not doing anything I think is a sure step in the wrong direction. You of course will disagree, and snipe my thoughts apart. Cool thing about a free country huh?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #87 November 19, 2004 Quote>Lots of people enjoy their freedom and safety but don't have the >stomach for war through which it was earned. And some enjoy their freedom and safety, but don't have the wisdom to see that those things are threatened by naked aggression against a country who is no threat to us. It is all well and good to defend your safety by attacking an intruder in your home; if you go around and pick fights with people in bars (on the idea that they might attack you later) you will sooner or later end up in the hospital. The reason you and I are able to sit here on our PC's and have this discussion today is that some smart leaders managed to avoid World War III in the 50's and 60's. Would you call them fools for not fighting a glorious war against our enemies? Would you call them cowards for backing down? So, Clinton bombing suspected terrorist training camps and aspirin factories is good, and Bush going in and removing a regime that supplied money and other support to those training camps is bad? Thanks for clearing that up for me.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #88 November 19, 2004 QuoteBrother, thats what they do...They sharp shoot anything you say, and claim that there is a betterway, but never say what that is. [sarcasm] [john kerry voice] I...have...a plan...... [/john kerry voice] "Really....what's that?" "What's different?" [john kerry voice] uhhh.....I...have...a plan...... It's a better plan...... [/john kerry voice] [/sarcasm] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #89 November 19, 2004 Quotethere is that whole cycle of sanctions, diplomacy, talks, trade agreements, aid bargaining, etc to get through. Right... All of those things need to be addressed but what are we going to give them this time? 12 years like Iraq? More this time? They'll be able to stockpile and/or distribute quite a bit in that time. And the UN is continually showing their ineffectiveness and corruptness. "No Confidence!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #90 November 19, 2004 Quote"So what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes?" I understand that it is only prudent to have a plan B, however, the diplomatic process has hardly started yet. If Iran contravenes proliferation agreements, I don't honestly know if they have signed up to any yet but they probably have (its early here so I may yet google a little), there is that whole cycle of sanctions, diplomacy, talks, trade agreements, aid bargaining, etc to get through. Given what we know about Iran already, which is the title of this thread, it is possible Iran will not comply. I have also been reading some online Arab news sources and the feeling I get is Iranians, whether they are for or against the present regime, think they are entitled to have nukes. The sense is "if the US, Pakistan, India, Israel etc. can have them, why can't we." QuoteWithout the UN, which most of you seem to despise, this will not be easy, there is no other forum to arrange this sort of thing. Because they pass resolutions and then don't stand behind them. QuoteUnilateral action from America will be globally unpopular, further isolating the USA from the international community at a time when the USA really needs to be thinking about redressing its balance of trade issues, and rebuilding damaged alliances, whilst forging new agreements. What makes you so sure we will be there next time? QuoteWhy are the right wing warmongers already discounting the diplomatic processes, have you guys no faith in the negotiating prowess of your recently elected leaders? Nobody is discounting the diplomatic process. We are just asking what the whole plan should be. What should the contingencies be incase one course of action is ineffective? QuoteDon't you think Dubbya is up to the job of convincing the international community to live peacefully with each other? Suppose he just decides that he's tired of the World criticizing everything he does and tell the Europeans "Iran is your problem, they don't have the technology to build a missle to reach the US so it's more likely they will use them against a European country first, so you guys deal with it." QuoteIf, after all the jawing has failed to produce agreeable results, then, I'm sad to say it, then more American blood will be shed. Probably some British blood too, if you can come up with reasonable justification. Are you guys really ready to sacrifice many more good and honourable people because you can't see eye to eye with Iran, are you ready to extend the Iraq situation to another country? Do you have the capacity to support the occupation of another country for an indefinite period. Are you ready to further divide a country that is struggling to mend the rift that has already opened internally? Why should the US care about an ungrateful Europe? Perhaps Europe and the UN needs to start thinking about what they are goingto do if America stops caring about them, and decides to let Europe spill it's own blood. Could happen you know. QuoteYou have to give the diplomatic process a chance, and you have to put at least as much effort into it as you would into a war, that effort was sadly lacking pre Iraq invasion. As I have said, next time we might decide not to be there. What's Europe going to do then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #91 November 19, 2004 Quoteit is possible probable Iran will not comply. Get ready... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #92 November 19, 2004 "All of those things need to be addressed but what are we going to give them this time?" Until they become a viable threat. Development vs production, delivery, and deployment kinda thing. You are probably more aware than I of the timescales involved with getting a complex weapons system off the test bed and making it usable to the guys in the field. The minute they test a missile with decent range, we will surely know about it? From the info Gawain sent me, they don't have a delivery system that is capable of carrying warheads more than 500 clicks. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/index.html that page only lists 'potential' delivery systems, we can't wage war based on 'potential', we must wage war on 'real'. I can't shoot you because I think you are going to burgle my home. I can shoot you as you climb thorugh my window, but I can't shoot you because you look dodgy. A poor analogy, but its all I got.I don't think 12 years, more like, as soon as we have incontrovertible evidence that they are in breach of any agreements, then the realpressure starts. Not secret evidence, that nobody gets to see, something a bit more tangible will be required, I suspect. The Iraq situation was fumbled, no two ways about it, and I'm not argueing that we (the coalition?UN?) let Saddam play at brinksmanship longer than we should have. This is a different game, with different players, with a different prize. Just as Iraq can not be compared with Vietnam, Iran cannot be compared to Iraq. Do you think that is reasonable? "And the UN is continually showing their ineffectiveness and corruptness." I disagree, just as the Abu Ghraib incidents, and the recent Falluja killing do not represent the entire US military, neither does this scandal involve the entire UN, nor was it done with approval from the 'management'. If you are suggesting differently, I'm disappointed, I thought you were better than that. (more of a compliment than an insult I hope) If the UN is proving ineffective, is there an alternative to accepting a single country's force as the world's policeman, jury, and judge? Furthermore, is the US prepared to accept that role, with all the responsibility and criticism that it will bring? Will the world accept this self appointment and play fair with you? There's potentially a lot at stake here.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #93 November 19, 2004 Quote"All of those things need to be addressed but what are we going to give them this time?" QuoteUntil they become a viable threat. So wait till we’re in a nuclear standoff situation. QuoteFrom the info Gawain sent me, they don't have a delivery system that is capable of carrying warheads more than 500 clicks. We didn’t either till we developed it. That’s what they’re doing. QuoteI don't think 12 years, more like, as soon as we have incontrovertible evidence that they are in breach of any agreements, then the realpressure starts. There was evidence that Iraq was not in compliance many years ago. There was continued “pressure.” Nothing happened. When does it become “real pressure” that accomplishes something? What will you suggest when Iran continues its policy of non-compliance? It’s a safe bet that they will not comply given their record. QuoteThis is a different game, with different players, with a different prize. Just as Iraq can not be compared with Vietnam, Iran cannot be compared to Iraq. No. But they’re very similar. Unlike Vietnam, the Balkans, etc in other parts of the world. QuoteI disagree, just as the Abu Ghraib incidents, and the recent Falluja killing do not represent the entire US military, neither does this scandal involve the entire UN, nor was it done with approval from the 'management'. If you are suggesting differently, I'm disappointed, I thought you were better than that. (more of a compliment than an insult I hope) I just don’t know how to respond to that after the corruption we’ve witnessed at the highest levels of the UN. By the way, justice is being done in reference to the Army incidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #94 November 19, 2004 If I got concerned over your gloomy prdictions, I'd be paranoid, I hope the previous answer to Pajarito explains some of of my thoughts. I'm not as gloomy as you. "I predict we will be in Iran within 6 months or less. " April this year, by you. You should be there by now according to your crystal ball. Neither do I share your faith in your administration. "I predict OBL will be in custody before the elections. " Fairly accurate...."What's Europe going to do then? " Its not the first time in the last 100 years that Europe has been closer to Armageddon than anyone else, it probably won't be the last. We'll get by. Have a good one.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #95 November 19, 2004 QuoteIf the UN is proving ineffective, is there an alternative to accepting a single country's force as the world's policeman, jury, and judge? Furthermore, is the US prepared to accept that role, with all the responsibility and criticism that it will bring? Will the world accept this self appointment and play fair with you? There's potentially a lot at stake here. What would the solution be if the US decides it is finished with this role? I mean after all, we are sorta busy with Iraq and Afghanistan. We also have budget deficits coming out our ears so it's quite possible we will just let Europe and the UN deal with it this time with no US Troops involved and no financial support from the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #96 November 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Do you think any of the radicals in this country can get access to such weapons?? Just in case you missed the story Bill posted the other day: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm You've obviously never heard of PRP. The other issue is that there appears to be a dichotomy. On the one hand, it's remarked that these domestic terrorists (who seem to be of most every stripe, but the media almost always portrays DT groups as being made up exclusively of digruntled white men) are of pretty low breeding and intelligence. Yet, it takes a lot of smarts just to safely handle, let alone operate, a nuke. And forget about the Tim McVeigh types actually being able to build one from discarded nuclear waste. There seems to be some kind of urban myth about such things. Not trying to be provacative here, just having some thoughts after my first cuppa. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #97 November 19, 2004 "I just don’t know how to respond to that after the corruption we’ve witnessed at the highest levels of the UN." After Watergate, Monica gate, Iran/Contra, WMDs(or not), the Florida vote fiasco, Chappaquiddick, and many others I can't conjure up right now, I'm sure you can figure out some way of reconciling things, surely. The world has been through worse than this, its a minor hiccup by comparison to other things. Have good weekend, I do mean it.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #98 November 19, 2004 QuoteHave good weekend, I do mean it. You too! No skydiving for me this weekend. I've got to go to the dredded wedding for someone in my wife's family thing. The pain is terrible. At least it's cloudy and rainy outside. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #99 November 19, 2004 That really is what I'm saying, if there is no UN, who or what will provide a forum to resolve the world's issues.... There currently is not an available alternative, so warts and all, the UN is the best we have. Europe and the UN? Do you know who provides the largest troop contingent to the UN? Bangladesh and Pakistan! Between them 17,00 troops, vs 430 from the USA. Surprised me too.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #100 November 19, 2004 "No skydiving for me this weekend" Me neither, snow and rugby.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 4 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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pajarito 0 #91 November 19, 2004 Quoteit is possible probable Iran will not comply. Get ready... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #92 November 19, 2004 "All of those things need to be addressed but what are we going to give them this time?" Until they become a viable threat. Development vs production, delivery, and deployment kinda thing. You are probably more aware than I of the timescales involved with getting a complex weapons system off the test bed and making it usable to the guys in the field. The minute they test a missile with decent range, we will surely know about it? From the info Gawain sent me, they don't have a delivery system that is capable of carrying warheads more than 500 clicks. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/index.html that page only lists 'potential' delivery systems, we can't wage war based on 'potential', we must wage war on 'real'. I can't shoot you because I think you are going to burgle my home. I can shoot you as you climb thorugh my window, but I can't shoot you because you look dodgy. A poor analogy, but its all I got.I don't think 12 years, more like, as soon as we have incontrovertible evidence that they are in breach of any agreements, then the realpressure starts. Not secret evidence, that nobody gets to see, something a bit more tangible will be required, I suspect. The Iraq situation was fumbled, no two ways about it, and I'm not argueing that we (the coalition?UN?) let Saddam play at brinksmanship longer than we should have. This is a different game, with different players, with a different prize. Just as Iraq can not be compared with Vietnam, Iran cannot be compared to Iraq. Do you think that is reasonable? "And the UN is continually showing their ineffectiveness and corruptness." I disagree, just as the Abu Ghraib incidents, and the recent Falluja killing do not represent the entire US military, neither does this scandal involve the entire UN, nor was it done with approval from the 'management'. If you are suggesting differently, I'm disappointed, I thought you were better than that. (more of a compliment than an insult I hope) If the UN is proving ineffective, is there an alternative to accepting a single country's force as the world's policeman, jury, and judge? Furthermore, is the US prepared to accept that role, with all the responsibility and criticism that it will bring? Will the world accept this self appointment and play fair with you? There's potentially a lot at stake here.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #93 November 19, 2004 Quote"All of those things need to be addressed but what are we going to give them this time?" QuoteUntil they become a viable threat. So wait till we’re in a nuclear standoff situation. QuoteFrom the info Gawain sent me, they don't have a delivery system that is capable of carrying warheads more than 500 clicks. We didn’t either till we developed it. That’s what they’re doing. QuoteI don't think 12 years, more like, as soon as we have incontrovertible evidence that they are in breach of any agreements, then the realpressure starts. There was evidence that Iraq was not in compliance many years ago. There was continued “pressure.” Nothing happened. When does it become “real pressure” that accomplishes something? What will you suggest when Iran continues its policy of non-compliance? It’s a safe bet that they will not comply given their record. QuoteThis is a different game, with different players, with a different prize. Just as Iraq can not be compared with Vietnam, Iran cannot be compared to Iraq. No. But they’re very similar. Unlike Vietnam, the Balkans, etc in other parts of the world. QuoteI disagree, just as the Abu Ghraib incidents, and the recent Falluja killing do not represent the entire US military, neither does this scandal involve the entire UN, nor was it done with approval from the 'management'. If you are suggesting differently, I'm disappointed, I thought you were better than that. (more of a compliment than an insult I hope) I just don’t know how to respond to that after the corruption we’ve witnessed at the highest levels of the UN. By the way, justice is being done in reference to the Army incidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #94 November 19, 2004 If I got concerned over your gloomy prdictions, I'd be paranoid, I hope the previous answer to Pajarito explains some of of my thoughts. I'm not as gloomy as you. "I predict we will be in Iran within 6 months or less. " April this year, by you. You should be there by now according to your crystal ball. Neither do I share your faith in your administration. "I predict OBL will be in custody before the elections. " Fairly accurate...."What's Europe going to do then? " Its not the first time in the last 100 years that Europe has been closer to Armageddon than anyone else, it probably won't be the last. We'll get by. Have a good one.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #95 November 19, 2004 QuoteIf the UN is proving ineffective, is there an alternative to accepting a single country's force as the world's policeman, jury, and judge? Furthermore, is the US prepared to accept that role, with all the responsibility and criticism that it will bring? Will the world accept this self appointment and play fair with you? There's potentially a lot at stake here. What would the solution be if the US decides it is finished with this role? I mean after all, we are sorta busy with Iraq and Afghanistan. We also have budget deficits coming out our ears so it's quite possible we will just let Europe and the UN deal with it this time with no US Troops involved and no financial support from the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #96 November 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Do you think any of the radicals in this country can get access to such weapons?? Just in case you missed the story Bill posted the other day: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm You've obviously never heard of PRP. The other issue is that there appears to be a dichotomy. On the one hand, it's remarked that these domestic terrorists (who seem to be of most every stripe, but the media almost always portrays DT groups as being made up exclusively of digruntled white men) are of pretty low breeding and intelligence. Yet, it takes a lot of smarts just to safely handle, let alone operate, a nuke. And forget about the Tim McVeigh types actually being able to build one from discarded nuclear waste. There seems to be some kind of urban myth about such things. Not trying to be provacative here, just having some thoughts after my first cuppa. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #97 November 19, 2004 "I just don’t know how to respond to that after the corruption we’ve witnessed at the highest levels of the UN." After Watergate, Monica gate, Iran/Contra, WMDs(or not), the Florida vote fiasco, Chappaquiddick, and many others I can't conjure up right now, I'm sure you can figure out some way of reconciling things, surely. The world has been through worse than this, its a minor hiccup by comparison to other things. Have good weekend, I do mean it.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #98 November 19, 2004 QuoteHave good weekend, I do mean it. You too! No skydiving for me this weekend. I've got to go to the dredded wedding for someone in my wife's family thing. The pain is terrible. At least it's cloudy and rainy outside. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #99 November 19, 2004 That really is what I'm saying, if there is no UN, who or what will provide a forum to resolve the world's issues.... There currently is not an available alternative, so warts and all, the UN is the best we have. Europe and the UN? Do you know who provides the largest troop contingent to the UN? Bangladesh and Pakistan! Between them 17,00 troops, vs 430 from the USA. Surprised me too.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #100 November 19, 2004 "No skydiving for me this weekend" Me neither, snow and rugby.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 4 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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nacmacfeegle 0 #94 November 19, 2004 If I got concerned over your gloomy prdictions, I'd be paranoid, I hope the previous answer to Pajarito explains some of of my thoughts. I'm not as gloomy as you. "I predict we will be in Iran within 6 months or less. " April this year, by you. You should be there by now according to your crystal ball. Neither do I share your faith in your administration. "I predict OBL will be in custody before the elections. " Fairly accurate...."What's Europe going to do then? " Its not the first time in the last 100 years that Europe has been closer to Armageddon than anyone else, it probably won't be the last. We'll get by. Have a good one.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #95 November 19, 2004 QuoteIf the UN is proving ineffective, is there an alternative to accepting a single country's force as the world's policeman, jury, and judge? Furthermore, is the US prepared to accept that role, with all the responsibility and criticism that it will bring? Will the world accept this self appointment and play fair with you? There's potentially a lot at stake here. What would the solution be if the US decides it is finished with this role? I mean after all, we are sorta busy with Iraq and Afghanistan. We also have budget deficits coming out our ears so it's quite possible we will just let Europe and the UN deal with it this time with no US Troops involved and no financial support from the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #96 November 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo what happens if diplomacy fails and Iran develops a stockpile of nukes? Do you think there's any possibility Hamas might manage to get one or two? Do you think any of the radicals in this country can get access to such weapons?? Just in case you missed the story Bill posted the other day: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm You've obviously never heard of PRP. The other issue is that there appears to be a dichotomy. On the one hand, it's remarked that these domestic terrorists (who seem to be of most every stripe, but the media almost always portrays DT groups as being made up exclusively of digruntled white men) are of pretty low breeding and intelligence. Yet, it takes a lot of smarts just to safely handle, let alone operate, a nuke. And forget about the Tim McVeigh types actually being able to build one from discarded nuclear waste. There seems to be some kind of urban myth about such things. Not trying to be provacative here, just having some thoughts after my first cuppa. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #97 November 19, 2004 "I just don’t know how to respond to that after the corruption we’ve witnessed at the highest levels of the UN." After Watergate, Monica gate, Iran/Contra, WMDs(or not), the Florida vote fiasco, Chappaquiddick, and many others I can't conjure up right now, I'm sure you can figure out some way of reconciling things, surely. The world has been through worse than this, its a minor hiccup by comparison to other things. Have good weekend, I do mean it.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #98 November 19, 2004 QuoteHave good weekend, I do mean it. You too! No skydiving for me this weekend. I've got to go to the dredded wedding for someone in my wife's family thing. The pain is terrible. At least it's cloudy and rainy outside. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #99 November 19, 2004 That really is what I'm saying, if there is no UN, who or what will provide a forum to resolve the world's issues.... There currently is not an available alternative, so warts and all, the UN is the best we have. Europe and the UN? Do you know who provides the largest troop contingent to the UN? Bangladesh and Pakistan! Between them 17,00 troops, vs 430 from the USA. Surprised me too.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #100 November 19, 2004 "No skydiving for me this weekend" Me neither, snow and rugby.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
