Hey, let's make it illegal TWICE!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Here is a link to a Staten Island paper article about gun control proposals in that borough of NYC.

Pay careful mention to the "code of conduct" stipulations, like this one: "Manufacturers would have to stop supplying weapons to dealers who sell guns to criminals..."

Um, it IS already illegal for anyone to "sell guns to criminals." Felons can't buy guns. And it's illegal to sell to anyone who gives indication that they intend to use a gun for criminal purposes.

So when this is made illegal a second time, will that solve the problem?

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The code of conduct would require gun dealers to abide by responsible sales practices, such as selling only from a storefront location and not in homes or at gun shows. Dealers could sell no more than one gun per customer in any 30-day period, and would be required to maintain records of all sales.

Let's also pass one-bottle-of-beer-a-day laws to prevent drunkenness. Surely anyone who wants more than one bottle of beer in a given day is into it for more than just the taste of the beer -- he's looking to get inebriated, which is socially unacceptable and has a high cost in lives and in the public health. Let's also pass one-car-a-month laws, since no one really needs to buy more than one car a month, and anyone who claims to is just likely to use those multiple cars to commit crimes. Surely no one actually collects cars because they like them!

Manufacturers would have to stop supplying weapons to dealers who sell guns to criminals or who otherwise fail to follow the code.

So, it's not currently illegal to supply guns to criminals?

If the bill is enacted, any gun manufacturer or dealer who fails to follow the code could be held liable for injuries or deaths caused by the illegal use of their products.

So a manufacturer who was not party to this "code" agreement will be held liable under it?

OFFICIAL RESPONSE

Committee chairman Peter Vallone Jr. (D-Queens) said the bill was needed to help crack down on irresponsible gun distributors.

Geoffrey Davis agreed, telling the committee it has to stop "corrupt dealers" from putting guns into the hands of violent criminals.

If these "corrupt dealers" have committed the crime of selling to prohibited persons, we already have the laws we need to prosecute them. Tell me WTF we need a law that will do nothing but open up predatory, money-grubbing lawsuits against innocent third-parties like manufacturers for.

The day the gun-banners agree to hold beer and liquor and car companies liable for drunk driving deaths is the day I will consider supporting suing gun manufacturers for criminal shootings.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[miked10270 0]

The worrying thing is that it's actually unlikely to be the dealers who're actually supplying weapons to criminals.

Here's a stray thought. In the US I'd probably be able to buy guns legally. From there and with the right contacts I guess I'd be able to pass the gun on for an extra $100 to someone who couldn't go into the store to buy one!

Which brings us right back to Registration and licensing being a good thing... BUT... The possible implications of registration and licensing (like it being the thin end of the wedge) being a bad thing.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[TheAnvil 0]

My God Jeffrey! What are you thinking? Are you actually proposing that people should be responsible for their own actions? Don't you have ANY regards for the feelings of Democrats?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Here's a stray thought. In the US I'd probably be able to buy guns legally. From there and with the right contacts I guess I'd be able to pass the gun on for an extra $100 to someone who couldn't go into the store to buy one!

You could, but would have commited a felony by dealing in guns without the appropriate license.

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Which brings us right back to Registration and licensing being a good thing...

The paper work is already in place to catch the sort of transactions you're worried about when a crime occurs with such a gun or they happen on a large scale. When you buy a gun from a dealer you fill out a form 4473 which the dealer keeps on file. If he goes out of business he surrenders his forms to the ATF. When a gun is used in a crime it can be traced from manufacturer to dealer, dealer to original purchaser. When a licensed entity (collector or dealer) sells more than one handgun to an individual within 5 business days a form 3310.4 gets filed containing the recipient's information and serial numbers. Too many of these forms probably merits an ATF visit.

There are other things to consider if you believe more registration will cut down on transfers:

1. An open bolt sub machine gun is the easiest repeating arm to build in a basement shop. Single shot weapons are even simpler.

2. Even a small country like England has porous borders that guns slip through. A bigger place like America with 10,000 miles of coastline can't keep out thousands of illegal immigrants or hundreds of tons of drugs. We won't be able to keep out small arms either.

Criminals will always have guns. Registration is merely a route to confiscation from law abiding owners and a precursor to genocide . One big genocide claims more lives than a thousand years of gun murders at America's current rate.

[JohnRich 4]

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Which brings us right back to Registration and licensing being a good thing...

Please explain how giving the government the serial numbers of my firearms, would stop me from later committing crimes with those same firearms.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Please explain how giving the government the serial numbers of my firearms, would stop me from later committing crimes with those same firearms.

It won't.

It will probably make it easier to trace it back to you though.

[miked10270 0]

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Please explain how giving the government the serial numbers of my firearms, would stop me from later committing crimes with those same firearms.

I'm pretty certain that YOU are too well balanced and law-abiding to seriously consider such a thing.

The idea is that you could then only sell on to another licensed person or licensed dealer so the gun's tracked from owner to owner, all of whom have been positively vetted as suitable persons to hold firearms.

Also, please quote me fully! Me & PJ have already agreed that registration and licensing is a double edged sword (as was proved in Britain in the last 20 years). Registration & licensing of firearms (like cars and drivers) has it's benefits ONLY if that is where it stops!!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Guest]

Gunpowder (black powder) can be made with commonly-available materials. Smokless powder is more difficult, but can still be done in the kitchen.

Shall we ban the materials needed, like steel?

I've considered making an open-bolt machine gun (which isn't a felony in most states [but the one I live in classes it so, damn them] - failure to register it with the BATFE and pay the tax on it is where the law is broken, ditto for silencers. You can make 'em but you have to report them) just to snub my nose at the Establishment, the same way the childish pot-smokers do.

In short, there's nothing that breeds contempt for authority more effectively than stupid, unenforceable laws.

mh

.

[JohnRich 4]

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Please explain how giving the government the serial numbers of my firearms, would stop me from later committing crimes with those same firearms.

It won't. It will probably make it easier to trace it back to you though.

In theory, if a gun is left at the scene of the crime, licensing and registration will allow a gun to be traced back to its owner. Police have spent tens of thousands of man-hours administering these laws in Hawaii (the one state with both rules). But, amazingly, there has not been a single case where police claim licensing and registration have been instrumental in identifying the criminal.

Why? Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime. This really only happens when the criminals have been seriously wounded or killed, in which case the police have already got the bad guys. Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons.

All gun registration does, is give you a list of law-abiding gun
owners. This list won't contain the guns owned by criminals, who
mostly just steal them. Stolen guns are already recorded in the FBI NCIC computer and are traceable very quickly to find out from whom they were stolen.

And even without registration, the ATF does a "trace-back" over 200 times per day to identify to whom a gun was sold, from manufacturer and Federal Firearms Licensee information. The gun John Hinckley used to shoot at President Reagan was traced in just 16 minutes. How will registration of law-abiding gun owner's firearms improve upon that?

Registration laws are only obeyed by the good guys, who aren't the problem.

[JohnRich 4]

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Please explain how giving the government the serial numbers of my firearms, would stop me from later committing crimes with those same firearms.

I'm pretty certain that YOU are too well balanced and law-abiding to seriously consider such a thing.

And those who are criminals will just ignore registration laws, so you have a huge database full of people with guns who aren't the problem. The ones who are the problem, won't be in the database. Everywhere registration has been tried as a crime-fighting tool, it has been a failure, and a huge waste of money. We're seeing this again right now in Canada and England. It would be far more beneficial to take the same amount of money and just put more cops on the street.

How are you going to get the criminals to register their guns? How about black-market sales? Stolen firearms?

[MC208B 0]

good news-bad news on firearms in HI. Good news is I can bring my WASR-10 over here with the 30 round magazines. Bad news is I can't bring any high capacity handgun magazines over and I have to go to the cop shop to register all my weapons and get fingerprinted.

Of course, I'm pretty sure this will keep someone from robbing a liquor store over in Honolulu!

[JohnRich 4]

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good news-bad news on firearms in HI. Good news is I can bring my WASR-10 over here with the 30 round magazines. Bad news is I can't bring any high capacity handgun magazines over and I have to go to the cop shop to register all my weapons and get fingerprinted. Of course, I'm pretty sure this will keep someone from robbing a liquor store over in Honolulu!

Not to worry though - if your guns get stolen and used in a crime, the cops will just come get *you* as the chief suspect.

[Ripple 0]

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Not to worry though - if your guns get stolen and used in a crime, the cops will just come get *you* as the chief suspect.

Well, they shouldn't. Not if you had reported the theft in the first place. As a law-abiding citizen, you'd do that, wouldn't you?

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[JohnRich 4]

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Not to worry though - if your guns get stolen and used in a crime, the cops will just come get *you* as the chief suspect.

Well, they shouldn't. Not if you had reported the theft in the first place. As a law-abiding citizen, you'd do that, wouldn't you?

So then, all a criminal has to do to protect himself from being caught for a gun crime, is to report his gun stolen. Presto! The police will just skip right over his name when they come to it in the ownership database - no problemo!

[christelsabine 1]

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So then, all a criminal has to do to protect himself from being caught for a gun crime, is to report his gun stolen. Presto! The police will just skip right over his name when they come to it in the ownership database - no problemo!

No, JohnRich, a whole lotta problemo! There it begins to work, our traditional gun ban as well as our strict gun controls:

Only registered people, these really are not many! are allowed to have guns! (Hunters f.e.) Only these owe officially registered guns. (Criminals with a black market gun will never go your a.m. way in reporting their guns stolen, I think we both agree on that.)

And no one will "just skip over their names". We are able to follow back all tracks of any gun ever registered. If I want to sell one of mine (like I did few times), I have to give information to hunter's authorities, mentioning which weapon (must be registered and confirmed by authorities in my gun owners card) I sell to whom (the buyer of course is to present his allowance that he may obtain my gun -such like his hunter's license!-) to same authorities.
I in my part have to send my gun owners card to be changed at authorities together with the purchase contract of buyer. He, in his side, is doing the same presenting all to authorities. Sounds complicate, is quite easy to handle. Only mostly needs weeeeks, until purchase contract, gun owners card etc..., all of these papers, are being sent back to seller and buyer. After that, I can hand over gun to buyer.
OK, that's bureaucracy.

Every single point, gun, calibre, address of seller, of buyer, date of purchase, all is registered. They can follow back every track of that one specific gun. From owner to owner. And, like I said in former threads: gun owners are under special controls. If I drink and drive and lose my drivers' license, I have to give back my hunters' license, my skydivers's licence, a pilot paper.... all what officially is registered.

Again: We surely do not talk about black market guns, right?

We are the master of bureaucracy, sometimes I simply have to admit it! For safety reasons.

And, no JohnRich, no new thread on gun ownership or similar, agreed ?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

I just had to skip that one. I couldn't make heads or tails of what christelsabine was saying. And I couldn't see the relevance of it to what we are talking about.

Anyone else?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[christelsabine 1]

***
I just had to skip that one. I couldn't make heads or tails of what christelsabine was saying. And I couldn't see the relevance of it to what we are talking about.
***

OK. As soon as I find time, I will explain it a little more in detail.

But for now: I am in WE!
Nice one to everybody.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[JohnRich 4]

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I just had to skip that one. I couldn't make heads or tails of what christelsabine was saying. And I couldn't see the relevance of it to what we are talking about.

I think she is trying to convince us that because Germany registers every gun, every gun owner, and ever gun sale, that Germany is a gun crime-free utopia.

But there's a problem with that view of things...

News Report 1

News Report 2

News Report 3

You can turn up numerous examples with Google.

Bottom line: all the laws in the world, don't stop criminals from being criminals.

[christelsabine 1]

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Bottom line: all the laws in the world, don't stop criminals from being criminals.

Well said JohnRich. You are right.
The more weapons are easy accessable, the more criminal cases ... you know, what I mean. I still do believe it.

I think, you understood very well what I said. But:
I do not try to convince anyone on crime-free utopia.
That's nonsens.

If I consider how hard it is under legal circumstances to get a gun in hand... as a non-hunter, I would have no chance. I am talking about my country.

JohnRich, I really do believe there is a lack somewhere between the US and (Europe)-Germany: Today, we all are white skins. But there are billions of miles between us. What a pity.

Now, I will go and have a look on your news reports 1-3.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I just had to skip that one. I couldn't make heads or tails of what christelsabine was saying. And I couldn't see the relevance of it to what we are talking about.

I think she is trying to convince us that because Germany registers every gun, every gun owner, and ever gun sale, that Germany is a gun crime-free utopia.

But there's a problem with that view of things...

News Report 1

News Report 2

News Report 3

You can turn up numerous examples with Google.

Bottom line: all the laws in the world, don't stop criminals from being criminals.

No doubt.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the fact that someone is known to have something is not in any way able to prevent them from misusing it.

If we required a license to buy a hammer, and kept a list of who bought them, would people be prevented from using their registered hammers from bashing someone else's skull?

I thought that christelsabine was saying something about how it's difficult to even be allowed to register to get a gun, as if that stops people from getting them. (I guess Germany has laws against black markets...)

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[JohnRich 4]

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If I consider how hard it is under legal circumstances to get a gun in hand... as a non-hunter, I would have no chance... Now, I will go and have a look on your news reports 1-3.

You should have had a look at those references *before* telling me how it is impossible for someone to obtain an illegal gun in Germany. Now your message is going to look kind of foolish...

[christelsabine 1]

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You should have had a look at those references *before* telling me how it is impossible for someone to obtain an illegal gun in Germany. Now your message is going to look kind of foolish

JohnRich,
after I had a look on 1-3, I was surprised you needed such a BS to convince anyone, or me f.e.
Sorry. Was expecting more from you.



But, as a mother, means: endless patience and stuff like that and someone who's never giving up, let me repeat:

I just wanted to make it clear: It's damned hard work to achieve access to weapons here on leagal ways. And, as soon, as you are allowed to keep a gun: You are under control. And that's what I admit. Weapons in hands of fools kill. Simply.

Black market? Same situation like yours Beyond control...

JR and PeaJay,
you will not convince me. I will never succeed to convince you. Let's accept it just like it is. I am just happy we have less millions of guns here. That's all.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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JohnRich,
after I had a look on 1-3, I was surprised you needed such a BS to convince anyone, or me f.e.
Sorry. Was expecting more from you.

I just wanted to make it clear: It's damned hard work to achieve access to weapons here on leagal ways. And, as soon, as you are allowed to keep a gun: You are under control. And that's what I admit. Weapons in hands of fools kill. Simply.

Black market? Same situation like yours Beyond control...

What do you mean "as soon as you are allowed to keep a gun you are under control"??

There is no direct control over a gun owner's actions just by virtue of registering or "qualifying" to own guns. There may be "accountability" -- but that is not physical prevention from shooting people.

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JR and PeaJay,
you will not convince me. I will never succeed to convince you. Let's accept it just like it is. I am just happy we have less millions of guns here. That's all.

I've gone from Peacefuljeffrey to PJ to "PeaJay"... neato. Strange, but neato. You've made a longhand form of an abbreviation...

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[JohnRich 4]

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It's damned hard work to achieve access to weapons here on leagal ways. And, as soon, as you are allowed to keep a gun: You are under control.

Black market? Same situation like yours Beyond control...

In other words, the gun laws only effect the law-abiding, and do nothing to stop the criminals. Gun-control laws don't stop crime.

[christelsabine 1]

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What do you mean "as soon as you are allowed to keep a gun you are under control"??

What I said! (legal) gun owners are registered, are controlled with every little bit of detail. I will repeat again what I said: Every detail is registered, kind of gun, calibre, date of purchase.... Boring to repeat all!

And that - in my eyes - is fully OK.

I prefer to have a nice supermarket just around the corner instead of a gun shop, where every screwed idiot on crack will buy a new "toy", go back home and kill is neighbour as soon as he's on turkey.

I prefer to life in solid built houses made of stone, not of wood. I accept our gun bans, our rigid gun laws and feel protected in my little clean country. With our chancellor Schroeder doing his best to represent our little country. OK. That guy is a little bit too short but, always well dressed, that Armani-freak.

I prefer that my lovely son is leaving his flat downstairs w/o locking the door as he's always in a hurry. I do it for him, later. But until locking, I am not scared a freak with a pump gun will enter our home.

PeacefulJeffrey & JohnRich:
It's adressed to both of you. That's just my 1Euro

Accept it or not. I do not care.

Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105