exit order//canopy traffic//fatalities

[rehmwa 2]

Your bold is on...

My bad, I read seats.

Not really related to my comment as the jumpers will ignore the seat belts on the floor and load the benches all the way to the tail and forces the last on to sit (still belted in) at the front of the plane.

And I think every jumper should have a seat belt.

We keep them in a box in a closet in the hanger. It keeps the airplane weight down.....

(kidding)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 30]

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We keep them in a box in a closet in the hanger.

Excellent!



And I knew you were advocating it, but with the Perris and Eloy 'vans, I dont think there is much of a choice to load the plane as per the seat belt configuration is set, and yes, it does put more then 10 jumpers behing the line.

That being said, I would assume that since not all 10 are on the freaking edge of the tailgate, the weight distriburtion is not as drastic than during a piece launch.

Remster

[billvon 3,179]

>A question, where you jump, do freefliers exit before or after AFF students?

Exit order is:

Boarders
RW (large to small)
freefly (large to small)
AFF
tandems
wingsuiters

>AFF level 1 is not much different that a 3-way RW group.

Well, a level 1 with video is closer to a 4-way group. The good news about a level 1 is that there are two instructors with the student, and level 1 exits are traditionally pretty lengthy. The combination of a reserve side JM who can take his time spotting and the typical level 1 climbouts leads to exit separations of 20 seconds or so, which are generally sufficient even with the inherent problems of freefly before RW.

It still may be an issue in higher winds, though, and AFF-I's are generally not hesitant to take a second pass if the spot gets long or the separation looks iffy.

[stevo 0]

Exit order is:

Boarders
RW (large to small)
freefly (large to small)
RW high pull
AFF
tandems
wingsuiters

this is the same exit order at perris and elsinore, with high pulling RW also exiting after FFers. Question still stands. if vertical separation is not a consideration, why is it safe for some RW groups to exit after FFers and not others? 4-Way RW or AFF, horizontal separation is horizontal separation no mattter who is after you. this exit order prevents as many in air collitions as the old exit order, but puts everyone under canopy in the pattern at the same time, regardless of canopy size.

[billvon 3,179]

>Question still stands. if vertical separation is not a consideration,
>why is it safe for some RW groups to exit after FFers and not others?

You can exit in any order you like, in any wind condition you like. If you want to put freeflyers out first, for example, no problem. But if you do that, on a moderate wind day, you might have to wait 20-30 seconds between FF and RW, because that order inherently reduces separation. Most groups are unwilling to wait that long - and even if they are, it's going to result in more goarounds, which means more $$ to the DZO.

AFF level 1's, on the other hand, do not have the same issues with not wanting to wait. Indeed, with few exceptions, AFF level 1's take a long time to get in the door and go. This means that you can get that 20-30 seconds that you need when you follow the freeflyers out.

[stevo 0]

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>Question still stands. if vertical separation is not a consideration,
>why is it safe for some RW groups to exit after FFers and not others?

You can exit in any order you like, in any wind condition you like. If you want to put freeflyers out first, for example, no problem. But if you do that, on a moderate wind day, you might have to wait 20-30 seconds between FF and RW, because that order inherently reduces separation. Most groups are unwilling to wait that long - and even if they are, it's going to result in more goarounds, which means more $$ to the DZO.

AFF level 1's, on the other hand, do not have the same issues with not wanting to wait. Indeed, with few exceptions, AFF level 1's take a long time to get in the door and go. This means that you can get that 20-30 seconds that you need when you follow the freeflyers out.

makes a lot of sense, but AFF is normally not the first group to follow FFers, it's the "high" pulling RW group(s) that give you a 10 or 12 count. regardless, i believe putting FFers out in the middle is creating more of a probablity of fatalities due to traffic. most full otters do a second pass with only two student groups left on it, why not spread the people out a little more on each pass. there's a serious problem at many drop zones with landing pattern/traffic and i believe that the fewer people under canopy at the same time will help save lives.

[kelpdiver 2]

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makes a lot of sense, but AFF is normally not the first group to follow FFers, it's the "high" pulling RW group(s) that give you a 10 or 12 count. regardless, i believe putting FFers out in the middle is creating more of a probablity of fatalities due to traffic. most full otters do a second pass with only two student groups left on it, why not spread the people out a little more on each pass. there's a serious problem at many drop zones with landing pattern/traffic and i believe that the fewer people under canopy at the same time will help save lives.

If the DZ typically makes two passes, it would be great to have the swoopers go first. But most of the ones I go to are a one run place.

As for the risk of putting out FFers first, it sucks. I've had to track away from open chutes below me. Should never have gone along with such a dumb plan.

[icevideot 0]

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most full otters do a second pass with only two student groups left on it

This may be true in some places but the only routine second passes I have seen have been in competitions. They seem to be rare otherwise in my experience.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[billvon 3,179]

>regardless, i believe putting FFers out in the middle is creating more
>of a probablity of fatalities due to traffic.

Canopy traffic, you mean? Exit separation is used to set safe separation at opening time. Trying to set landing separation by that technique is a hopeless case; canopy descent rates are not closely related to type of skydiving.

>most full otters do a second pass with only two student groups left on
>it, why not spread the people out a little more on each pass.

Right, but most full otters do not do a second pass. If you plan for a second pass on every jump, then jump ticket prices go up because of a guaranteed increase in fuel/maintenance costs. And in the places you need it most (i.e. Rantoul) it's not practical to do second passes anyway.

[speedy 0]

I suppose for tandems and high pulling solo's they can afford the extra wait before exiting after freefliers because if all goes to plan they will have enough altitude to get back from a long spot. If all does not go to plan, the extra wait will give them enough horizontal separation to avoid collisions.

One other thought, it appears to be a struggle sometimes to get 22 jumpers out of an otter in one pass. How did you get all 400+ out on the world record in one pass?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[voodew1 0]

The Dz I jump at states if you feel a goround is needed for safety purposes or because the spot is to long by all means go around.

There is no reason to compromise safety, be that landing off in an unfamiliar terrain, or in too much in air traffic

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[rehmwa 2]

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I suppose for tandems and high pulling solo's they can afford the extra wait .......the extra wait will give them enough horizontal separation to avoid collisions.

that's the idea - so the real issue is when you have very new people choosing to open high and, thus, following the freeflyers, we need to explain exit separation to them so they know they are required to take an extra delay to accommodate the freefall drift. (and not to worry, if it's windy enough to warrant a separation delay, it'll be windy enough for them to make it back)

this I don't see happening at all with the newbies

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[speedy 0]

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this I don't see happening at all with the newbies

and I don't see it happening all too often with people that should know better.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[billvon 3,179]

>The Dz I jump at states if you feel a goround is needed for safety
>purposes or because the spot is to long by all means go around.

Yep, I agree. But on the other side of the coin, if it's safe to do everything on one pass, that's preferable. I recall one Otter load at Perris that took FIVE passes to get everyone out. Do that a few times and jump ticket prices will go in an unhappy direction.

In addition, there are some places (Rantoul) where goarounds are simply not possible, so the additional separation you get by putting RW out first (for example) becomes critical.

[AFFI 0]

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In addition, there are some places (Rantoul) where goarounds are simply not possible, so the additional separation you get by putting RW out first (for example) becomes critical.

I have never jumped there - why are go arounds impossible?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 3,179]

>why are go arounds impossible?

Traffic. The next otter is 3 minutes out behind you. (Although on slow days you can sometimes get that goaround if you ask.)

[icevideot 0]

With all the different jump runs in Rantoul and different aircraft in the air I just trust the pilot and go when he says. Of course I do scan for traffic but not so much the spot.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[billvon 3,179]

>With all the different jump runs in Rantoul and different aircraft
>in the air I just trust the pilot and go when he says.

You're more trusting than I am, then! I don't mind waiting longer than I think is correct, but especially when I have a group I'll make sure we're not too short.

[icevideot 0]

Yeah I was more concerned with traffic from other aircraft. If you can't find a safe landing area in Rantoul I would seriously reconsider my hobbies.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."