Another "Good Riddance" Story (not Arafat)

[Kennedy 0]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=235904

Quote

Some Say US No Longer Feels Like Home
With Bush Re-election, Foreign Countries Look Better to Them

by Dan Schabner

Nov. 10, 2004 -- Leora Dowling and her husband thought returning from deep in "red" America to her native New England would make them feel more comfortable, more like the people around them shared their values. Since the election, she's been contemplating another move. To Italy.

"After the election, my husband and I asked ourselves, 'How could our country be heading backward? How could so many people miss or choose to ignore the obvious failures of the Bush administration?'" the former Florida resident said.

President Bush pledged that one priority for his second term would be to heal the wounds that a bitter election — in which groups not formally connected to each candidate ran attack ads focused on character, not issues — seems to have opened for many Americans.

Dowling, a college professor who lives with her husband in Vermont, is not alone in feeling that the wounds cannot be healed, or at least that Bush is not the man to do it.

For Dowling, as for others who ABCNews.com spoke with, though the immediate anger may be focused on the president — whether because of the war in Iraq, his stance on same-sex weddings, what they say is his blurring of the line between church and state, or his championing of the Patriot Act — there is a broader concern. They say they feel the United States is changing in ways they do not like, and they feel powerless to stop it.

"We were leaving anyhow, mostly because we want to start a family and we don't feel our children can get a decent education in the United States," said Brian Sinicki, of Laramie, Wyo.

He said America's schools fail children by not teaching subjects like philosophy and civics, subjects that he said would give Americans not only a deeper understanding of the world, but an appreciation for why they should be more actively involved in the political process, not only voting but staying informed.

He also criticized the media, and television in particular, for the way news is covered.

(page 2)
"Television I think has single-handedly destroyed the level of political discourse," he said. "When I talk to people about politics, they're either radically misinformed or they wouldn't know how to define the terms that they use."

Sinicki, who has been job hunting in his wife's native France, doesn't blame Bush for what he believes is happening in America, but he doesn't believe Bush will change things for the better, either.

"All these things were going on before Bush got elected," he said. "But I also think they got worse since Bush got elected. He's a symptom of the problem and he's making it worse."

Like Sinicki, Dowling didn't start thinking about moving abroad last week, but she said her concern was more about the role Bush's religious beliefs seem to play in his governing, and the role of religion in American society — what she called "aggressive Christianity."

"There is this aggressive morality that seems to me to have nothing to do with Christianity," she said. "Our fathers were mostly Unitarians, not at all holy rollers."

She also said it feels like there has been a closing of the American mind.

"I can't understand when in our nation's history being an intellectual, having a questioning, curious mind, wanting to travel, became bad," she said. "I don't understand when it became stigmatized."

She said Italy appeals to her because it is a country that holds secular values, with a "mind your own business" attitude to religion and an acceptance of the fallibility of its government.

"I do love my country and it hurts me very deeply to see what's happening here, to see us so far off course," she said. "But I've met a lot of evangelicals and they believe it deeply. They'd rather vote for fetuses and against gay people, rather than voting against war, with thousands dead, against guns, which we know kill people. When you're talking about deeply held religious beliefs, you're out of luck."

While for some people who said they are investigating the possibility of leaving the country, the difficulty of finding work overseas could keep them in the United States, for those who operate Web-based businesses, that is not a problem.

One such person, Kelly Ann Thomas of Houston, said she has put her house on the market and a real estate agent has been showing her properties in a Central American country. She said she did not want to say exactly where, because her agent told her he received 45 calls in one day from Americans looking to move to the same location.

She has been concerned since Bush took office in 2001, she said. She started buying gold and investing in euros, because she and her husband, an oil trader, were worried about a "significant stock market collapse."

Much of her anger at the president is related to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, both of which she believes were being planned by the administration months before Sept. 11, 2001. But her opinion of former Democratic candidate Sen. John Kerry isn't much better.

"I can no longer in good conscience support a nation that believes it is OK to lie to start wars," she said. "I will not live in a country where dumb and dumber are my two choices for president. I'm taking my assets out of the country and moving to Central America, where ironically, I will have more freedom to live my life without interference from a corrupt government. My husband and I will leave within four months."

For Cindy Sproul, though, leaving the country — if she does go — will be a business decision, though one that is based on politics. Or it could become a matter of life or death.

She operates an Internet business, RainbowWeddingNetwork.com, a gay and lesbian wedding registry and directory of gay-friendly professionals.

The business has been successful — she said the site has 4,700 vendors advertising there, and most of the businesses are not owned by straight people — but a combination of factors has made her feel unwelcome in her own country.

"With the ban on gay marriage passing in so many states and the conservative agenda President Bush is taking, it doesn't feel safe in the U.S. any more," she said. "We are expecting that next year Bush will try to push the Federal Marriage Amendment Act through Congress again."

Actually, she said she has been worried about safety since receiving her first death threat, two weeks after starting the company. The threats have not stopped coming, she said, though she relocated to another city, and then had to relocate again within the new city.

She said her Web site already does a lot of business with Canadians and Canadian companies, and she feels Canada is more tolerant than the United States right now. But she said her decision will be made on business terms.

"We're small business owners, so everything relies on the business aspects," she said.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[catfishhunter 2]

Why in the world would the press ever give these people the time of day???? How about printing stories of those we are relieved that the backward ass people that voted for Kerry and the white house didn't end up the waffle house???

I think the news should print the address and phone numbers of these folks so we can all send them "good bye, don't let staute of liberty kick yo in the ass on the way out" letters and phone calls. I wonder if google can find anything on these folks... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Googled them........

I see why ABC went and talked to these Ladies. Makes perfect sense now....Propaganda in the worst sense.....Almost makes me want to stop watching monday night football......

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[AggieDave 6]

I'm glad these folks are voicing their opinions, that's something that makes this country great. If they (canidates) go through the process laid out in the constitution and don't win, well, that's another aspect of the political process.

I didn't like Clinton, I didn't vote for Clinton, but I knew that it would be over soon and we'd have another election. With every election this nation has ever had, there has been a loosing canidate(s).

If someone can't deal with how the politics are conducted in the US then they should 1) work to change the process, 2) suck it up, 3)try to get their canidate elected next time, 4) live somewhere else.

If they want to move somewhere else, good for them, let them move and let them move peacefully. I think they may not find their answers by running away from their problems, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[storm1977 0]

Good bye... Have fun.
I hope you like Canada, and France and Italy and Central America.

You will not be missed by me.

They obviously don't believe in Democracy, adn they obviously don't like America. They have power and they can vote. That is what this country was founded on.

The whole concept of susession(sp?) was a joke too.
Ohh... we didn't like the outcome of the election, we should start our own Country.... OK-- Find some land and go for it!!! It won't be a republic though because you obviously don't like that!!!

Fucking crybabies... that is all they are!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 3,118]

Damn right! Send these people packing. Damn business owners, concerned parents, people for gay rights - they've got no business in the US! Reserve this great land for people willing to pledge their allegiance to Bush, Jesus, guilt-ridden missionary-position heterosexual sex and guns (in that order, of course.)

Of course, there's another solution, as shown below. Conservatives would love it.

[catfishhunter 2]

***I will not live in a country where dumb and dumber are my two choices for president. I'm taking my assets out of the country and moving to Central America, where ironically, I will have more freedom to live my life without interference from a corrupt government. My husband and I will leave within four months."

LMAO Rich american in Central America huh? Hope they have there kidnapping insurance paid up...

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Trent 0]

Get off it, Bill. If people want to leave because they can't handle their candidate losing an election, let 'em go. It's the childish thing to do, and they really never go through with it. The majority of voters DID NOT see it the way they did, better luck next time.

Based on your reply, I take it that you really do think that everyone that voted for Bush is a Bible-beating, uptight, mindless redneck. That's very condescending of you. Is that working out for you?

If people want to leave because of who's president, they have that freedom... just like those of us who will stay and do our best for the country have the freedom to say, "Have a nice trip!".

Oh, hello again!

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

If someone can't deal with how the politics are conducted in the US then they should 1) work to change the process, 2) suck it up, 3)try to get their canidate elected next time, 4) live somewhere else.

This may display a fundamental difference right now, dave. When Clinton won, and Democrats controlled the Presidency, House and Senate, I do not recall hearing talk of how Republicans would move away and go somewhere else because of the course America was taking.

Republicans pulled up their sleeves, organized, and two years later absolutely shocked the political establishment by taking away Democratic control of the House and Senate. I believe that Dems had control of the House for 40 years. (Of course, thos e"Contract With America" Republicans sold out).

It seems that Democrats do not have the energy or the will to fight for their beliefs. Are the Democrats, as a whole, packing it in and saying, "America is not worth it?" Are they following the Al Gore model of turning bearded, fat and slovenly in a raging depression?

Or, will we see Democrats reaching out to America with new ideas, thoughts and resolve?

With the Bush Administration going unchecked, the elections of 2006 may well turn things around for the Dems. Unless, of course, they give up. And it appears that they are doing that very thing in very large numbers.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,118]

>If people want to leave because they can't handle their candidate
>losing an election, let 'em go.

I can remember a time when people left their native land due to a government that was legislating morality and religion. They landed on another continent and started a new society, one where people were free to worship and live as they pleased. It was pretty successful if I recall. Maybe it's time for that to happen again. History does repeat itself.

[Gawain 0]

For anyone that is serious about leaving, but require assistance:

www.helpthemleave.com

With a sworn statement of renunciation of citizenship and a promise to never return, they'll fund the airfare.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

>If people want to leave because they can't handle their candidate
>losing an election, let 'em go.

I can remember a time when people left their native land due to a government that was legislating morality and religion. They landed on another continent and started a new society, one where people were free to worship and live as they pleased. It was pretty successful if I recall. Maybe it's time for that to happen again. History does repeat itself.

Of course, despite its successes, Israel is still reviled by the rest fo the world, and attacked by people on all sides hoping for their destruction.

Of course, these people starting a new society will probably have to destroy the natives (like Americans did) so that those who are still alive can have a better life of freedom and happiness.

Ths begs the question - do these liberals have it within them to fight like that? If so, they'd be staying...

Edited to add: I forgot to mention the success of Liberia...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,118]

>Of course, these people starting a new society will probably have to
> destroy the natives . . .

Depends where they go. I have a feeling they won't have to kill too many natives if they go to northern Greenland (which is getting nicer, now with the climate warming and all.) And in twenty years that new society may happen in low earth orbit, or at a libration point, or on Mars - and you're probably not going to find many natives there.

[Trent 0]

Seriously, Bill... you're slipping. Are you feeling alright?

Do you, or do you not believe in democracy? Do you think that this country should be run by someone selected by a minority of people just because they thought like you?

From the irrational posts you're making in this thread, maybe I could suggest somewhere where they already have the government that these whiners want... North Korea. It seems like everything they could ask for, in fact... there are very few evil white anglo-saxon protestants in that country.

It's getting fucking ridiculous that anyone thinks that religion is being shoved down their throat. If the over-reacting folk want to leave, go ahead. This is the US, we'll grow more good small business owners... no matter what line of politics they follow.

Oh, hello again!

[Jimbo 0]

Regarding the United States of Canada and Jesus Land, what's that state just above California? Is it Oregon? Is it the same Oregon that voted FOR the gay marriage amendment?

Anyhow, back on the subject of the people who want to leave, let them go. If they're not going to stay and work for change, but rather simply have their temper tantrum and leave then I'm not sure that they're much good to us, are they?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Zep 0]

Quote

Damn right! Send these people packing. Damn business owners, concerned parents, people for gay rights - they've got no business in the US! Reserve this great land for people willing to pledge their allegiance to Bush, Jesus, guilt-ridden missionary-position heterosexual sex and guns (in that order, of course.)

Of course, there's another solution, as shown below. Conservatives would love it.

Woah WoahWoah slow down a minute, What makes you think the rest of the world wants your countrys rejects
Your society made them like they are you keep them Europe for one dosn't want them or at least this European dosen't.

A better idea would be stick them all on one of your islands in the pacific an forget them
or turn Alaska into a concentration camp for leftys








Obviously when God said "line up for your brains" they thought he said trains and went for a ride.

Gone fishing

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Damn right! Send these people packing. Damn business owners, concerned parents, people for gay rights - they've got no business in the US! Reserve this great land for people willing to pledge their allegiance to Bush, Jesus, guilt-ridden missionary-position heterosexual sex and guns (in that order, of course.)

Of course, there's another solution, as shown below. Conservatives would love it.

Quote

Woah WoahWoah slow down a minute, What makes you think the rest of the world wants your countrys rejects

Can't help myself: Bill's post just sounds too funny to be true

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[billvon 3,118]

>Do you, or do you not believe in democracy?

Well, I believe in what we have, which is part democracy, part representative government, part republic, part a nation of law etc. It's not a pure democracy.

>Do you think that this country should be run by someone selected
>by a minority of people just because they thought like you?

Uh, no.

>From the irrational posts you're making in this thread, maybe I could
> suggest somewhere where they already have the government that
> these whiners want...

. . . USA circa 1840.

>It's getting fucking ridiculous that anyone thinks that religion is
> being shoved down their throat.

Posters on this very board are going to be denied rights because of the religious right. One may well have his marriage ripped apart. If that's not "shoving religion down someone's throat" I don't know what is.

>If the over-reacting folk want to leave, go ahead. This is the US, we'll
> grow more good small business owners...

I'm sure England circa 1720 thought the same thing.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

When Clinton won, and Democrats controlled the Presidency, House and Senate,

Whhh, when was that? The Republicans have controlled the House since 1992, when Clinton took office. And they've controlled the Senate for most if not all of his term.

The difference right now is that all three houses are controlled by a single party with a cohesive agenda. Some people who don't like that agenda are getting scared.

[Kennedy 0]

The Demos had controll of the senate until Clinton's first midterm elections.

You know, the ones right after the AWB. Since then Republicans have controlled both houses to extent or another.

However, I think you are correct in that Repubs held the House when Clinton was sworn in.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Trent 0]

Good morning Bill, welcome to reality.

Quote

Well, I believe in what we have, which is part democracy, part representative government, part republic, part a nation of law etc. It's not a pure democracy.

And Bush would have won no matter what kind of democracy we had. Popular vote, you know. The system worked, it just didn't work for the 48%ers, but that's how it goes. How about focusing on the future now?

Quote

. . . USA circa 1840.... [and]...I'm sure England circa 1720 thought the same thing.

Well I propose a time machine for all who want to live in the past versions of the US, and also for you to go be REALLY sure about what the English thought in 1720. Think we could get funding for that? Either way, England's not doing so bad after us splitters left. What's the problem?

Quote

Posters on this very board are going to be denied rights because of the religious right. One may well have his marriage ripped apart. If that's not "shoving religion down someone's throat" I don't know what is.

So is the ubiquitous "Religious Right" doing the shoving, or is it the government? The government is not shoving any religion down our throats. It's just funny that you think that way since religious folk seem to think that people like you are actively trying to destroy their religions. Who's right? I bet neither one of you is. As for your friend who's marriage may be ripped apart, is that the government doing it or one of the partners' religions?

There's really too much conspiracy thinking going on on both sides, and you're just contributing to it. America is still a great place to be and people like you and others here can help, or try to tear things down. Right now, most of the left seems to just want to tear down out of bitterness. People seem to think that Republicans or conservatives are blindly following the leader here, but that isn't true and you all know it. If the government tried to (in our own opinions) infringe upon our rights, we'd take it to the mattress like any of you. No one is looking for a fascist police state, although I know it makes you feel better about your position to think that.

Oh, hello again!

[crwtom 0]

Quote

Damn right!
Of course, there's another solution, as shown below. Conservatives would love it.

i really wonder how the red america would like a secession of
the north (though I don't like "US of Canada" - "USNA"
US of Nothern America smeems more fitting).

Consider that the 9/11 attackts that the Bush Admin made so
much political hay with wre on a staunchly blue state. Despite
the sucking up of Giuliani Bush lost the district of Manhatten by
a 82:17 landslide. These are the people who really have a
reason to be scared of terrorits attacks and ought to think the
hardest but the best course of prevention is.

The various invasions of the Bush Admin as an effort to create
a gradious new world order were, of course, also not fought and
won by packing a bunch of rednecks with pitchforks on a few
shrimp boats and sailing them out to Iraq. Those were done with
the technology (aviation, computer systems, etc) that is in vast
majority are developed (and also produced) in the coastal,
heavily democratic America.

Essentially the situation that you have, is that the question how
to handle a serious security problem of the blue states by
employment of the technology and resources of the blue states
is decided by how someone in the red states interprets the
psalms in the bible.

For many years I wondered why, with all the potentially
devastating technology, humanity hasn't yet annihiliated itself.
I think it's similar to why not all skydivers have already killed
themselves despite the availability of tiny canopies and so
many things you can do wrong with your skydiving gear.

Capabilities and technology come slowly and in increments
and somehow public awarness of the consequences and the
possibly complex ramifictions alwasy manage to catch up in
the time before the next advance. If "little boy" and "fat boy"
had been a bunch of the modern bombs we wouldn't be
talking about Hiroshma or Nagasaki but half of Japan. If the
first square canopie that came put in the early 70's had been
3.0 loaed velocities we woudn't be talking dozens but 100's of
bounces a year. People lhad time to earn before it was too late.


Now you have to wonder whether a red America that has
seized control over the blue one has the wisdom and
resposibility tha parallels the technological adavnec and
political/social complexity of this part. I am very very worried.

No - it's not a time to leave. It is a time for 48% of Americans to
stand up and claim what's rightfully theirs.

Cheers

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[billvon 3,118]

Thanks for the morning laugh!

>Good morning Bill, welcome to reality.

>And Bush would have won no matter what kind of democracy we had.
> Popular vote, you know.

Actually, reality would be that we have an electoral, not a popular, system for electing the presodent. If it were popular. Gore would be the president now.


>Well I propose a time machine for all who want to live in the past
> versions of the US. . .

I propose a simpler way to see what the past US is all about - read the Constitution. No time machine required, and nowadays you don't even have to travel to DC to do it. Ain't progress great?

Many of us believe that the Constitution should not be discarded and rewritten every few years, that the concepts it contains are not just for "old times" and ancient peoples, but for the US as long as it stands.

>Either way, England's not doing so bad after us splitters left. What's
>the problem?

No problem at all!

>So is the ubiquitous "Religious Right" doing the shoving, or is it the
> government? The government is not shoving any religion down our
> throats.

If it tears marriages apart under threat of penalty, it sure the hell is. Perhaps common sense will prevail, and such laws will not be enacted. We can only hope.

> As for your friend who's marriage may be ripped apart, is that the
> government doing it or one of the partners' religions?

The government.

> America is still a great place to be and people like you and others
> here can help, or try to tear things down.

America is still a pretty good place. The way to make it better is to tear down the bad and build upon the good. Should we have kept slavery, so that we didn't reap negativity and bad blood by "tearing things down?"

>If the government tried to (in our own opinions) infringe upon our
> rights, we'd take it to the mattress like any of you.

Cool! I will hold you to that. There will attacks upon some of us coming soon, I think, and I agree that we have to oppose those attacks as strongly as possible - even if we get accused of trying to "tear things down."

[Trent 0]

Quote

Actually, reality would be that we have an electoral, not a popular, system for electing the presodent. If it were popular. Gore would be the president now.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, Bush would've won EVEN if we had a simple democracy of popular voting. Yeah, IF we had a simple democracy, Gore would've won too, but this time Bush did no matter how our system could've been designed.

Quote

Many of us believe that the Constitution should not be discarded and rewritten every few years, that the concepts it contains are not just for "old times" and ancient peoples, but for the US as long as it stands.

What is the most recent amendment to the consitution, Bill? Please tell me where my rights are being infringed so that I may be as angry as you are.

Quote

If it tears marriages apart under threat of penalty, it sure the hell is. Perhaps common sense will prevail, and such laws will not be enacted. We can only hope.

> As for your friend who's marriage may be ripped apart, is that the
> government doing it or one of the partners' religions?

The government.

I don't know anything about your friend's particular situation, but if that's in another thread, I'll go read about it and offer an opinion.

Quote

America is still a pretty good place. The way to make it better is to tear down the bad and build upon the good. Should we have kept slavery, so that we didn't reap negativity and bad blood by "tearing things down?"

What should we be tearing down? I've got my list that I know you won't agree with. Since you brought slavery into it, remember that the turning point in that "tearing down" was the Civil War, which cost more American lives than any other war to date. Make sure that you're okay with the consequences or means of "tearing down" because, like many people, I think that a certain group of people will piss and moan even if they get their way.

Quote

Cool! I will hold you to that. There will attacks upon some of us coming soon, I think, and I agree that we have to oppose those attacks as strongly as possible - even if we get accused of trying to "tear things down."

If I really feel that my rights are infringed, I'll be just as angry as anyone. Keep in mind that people on both sides of our arguments want America do succeed, there's just different ideas of how to make that happen. Try not to forget that our goals, in the end, are the same.

Oh, hello again!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Woah WoahWoah slow down a minute, What makes you think the rest of the world wants your countrys rejects
Your society made them like they are you keep them Europe for one dosn't want them or at least this European dosen't.

But these are people who think just like Europeans have said they do! They hated the current president, they wanted Kerry the liberal, they oppose the war in Iraq, they want socialized-everything... Trust me, they'll fit right in; ya won't even notice 'em!

And "rejects"? Don't you know that they're the "smart people" among us idiot redneck American know-nothing religious nuts? They're not "rejects" -- they're ELITE! Who knows; if you're lucky, they'll come over there and tell YOU how to vote properly, and which candidates of yours are the obvious right choices for anyone who is not mentally retarded.

-Jeffrey

A better idea would be stick them all on one of your islands in the pacific an forget them
or turn Alaska into a concentration camp for leftys








Obviously when God said "line up for your brains" they thought he said trains and went for a ride.

[PhillyKev 0]

The world must be really ugly from behind your eyes.