storm1977 0 #1 November 10, 2004 As I was watching Scarborough Country last night a gentleman was on talking about where the Dems went wrong etc..... One thing he noted which was somewhat Ironic was how in the 60's the Democrats were the "Religious" one's fighting for civil rights, and now they are the ones condeming Middle America as being too religious and opposed to civil rights. This getleman also talked about Martin Luther King, and how religious he was, and what he thought about this country and religion. The fact is the USA has never been a Secular nation, and it was founded of religious principal. The Left wants to take that away and create a secular country. I, myself, am not very religious, but I think the teachings of structured morality and religion are great for this nation. Anyway, when MLK was arrested in Birminham on Good friday 1963, he wrote a famous letter from prison. In this letter he explains how only the Law of GOD is just and how human law in this country, if not in tune with God's law, is unjust!!! He quotes saints and says this is his reason for breaking laws for the greater good. On this logic, MLK would have opposed abortions and Gay marriage since they go against "God's law and the Natural Law." Here is a direct quote from MLK's prison letter. Quote You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may won ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there fire two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the Brat to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all" Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal .law and natural law. Let the Flames Begin!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 November 10, 2004 QuoteMLK would have opposed abortions and Gay marriage since they go against "God's law and the Natural Law." Your opinion. There are many Christians who don't believe that. Until you can provide a quote from God, not a quote from a book written by men that he supposedly inspired, but a direct communication from the man himself, then your opinions on gay marriage and abortion are just that...opinion. And unless you can produce a quote from MLK saying that abortion or gay marriage violate god's law, than your assumptions about his position on those issues are just guesses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #3 November 10, 2004 Opinion maybe, but as valid if not more valid than yours since I took the time to look at his view of the world and tried to get an understanding of his politics. Based on the principals he followed and he preached, he would definitely be opposed to abortion. That is an easy inference to make. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #4 November 10, 2004 George Washington would have been against the war in Iraq.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #5 November 10, 2004 Guess you didnt pay much attention when you read your bible. Homosexuality is condemned in the bible. It stands to reason that Gay marriages are also not supported by the bible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #6 November 10, 2004 Quote George Washington would have been against the war in Iraq. What's your point Kallend??? Trying to change the subject again??? THAT'S RARE If you don't like the discussion at hand you can leave and try to highjack another thread...preferably not one of mine. Stick to the subject! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #7 November 10, 2004 QuoteQuote George Washington would have been against the war in Iraq. What's your point Kallend??? Trying to change the subject again??? THAT'S RARE If you don't like the discussion at hand you can leave and try to highjack another thread...preferably not one of mine. Stick to the subject! It's very much to the point. Think about it some more and you will realize the relevance.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #8 November 10, 2004 LEV 20:13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #9 November 10, 2004 I'm not offering an opinion on what MLK would or wouldn't say about these issues. Your opinion is not valid based on your assertion that they violate moral law. Yes, MLK may oppose something that violates moral law. But saying that he would have believed these issues violate moral law is pure speculation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #10 November 10, 2004 Ahhh, Leviticus....truly that confirms it then. My question is, why doesn't anyone bring up Leviticus to try and pass an amendment banning the eating of rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." How about an amendment demanding that burnt offerings are made after giving birth to get rid of the uncleaness as a result? What we really need is an amendment prohibiting the trimming of your beard and tatooing. If you're going to claim riteousness and legitimacy based on a book in the bible, you'd better start living up to the rest of the rules yourself first before you go trying to push one misinterpreted and bad translation of one rule on other people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #11 November 10, 2004 Nope, it is not relevant, and it is off subject. I am bring up a discussion of a letter writen by MLK and his views on civil rights. When I start a thread on foriegn Policy, it may become relevant :-) ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #12 November 10, 2004 QuoteThe fact is the USA has never been a Secular nation, and it was founded of religious principal. The US was was not "founded of religious principal". It is, in part, based in the freedom to practice any religion of your choosing without fear of reprisal. I would say that the US was founded on the absence of religious principles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #13 November 10, 2004 Interesting that you should bring up MLK since I was channel surfing last night and there was an older movie on about an interracial couple who had to fight for their right to be married. (The state they lived in arrested them and they had to leave the stae in order to stay out of jail.) I found it to be pretty relevant! Morality to me is about tolerance, peace, forgiveness and being kind to your fellow man. Hatred, bigotry and intolerance have nothing to do with morality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #14 November 10, 2004 Was it "The Great White Hope"? That flick was ahead of its time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #15 November 10, 2004 Nope, I think it was called "Mr. and Mrs. Loving" and its only a few years old. I'm pretty sure its based on an actual case that went to the supreme court. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #16 November 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe fact is the USA has never been a Secular nation, and it was founded of religious principal. The US was was not "founded of religious principal". It is, in part, based in the freedom to practice any religion of your choosing without fear of reprisal. I would say that the US was founded on the absence of religious principles. And you would be wrong!!!! The USA was founded on Judeo-christian philisophy. If you have any doubts on that read a history book. It explains why almost all currency in this county has the words "In GOD we trust" written on it. The US did not want to have a "Religious State" created, but did want religious practice of its people. You obviously don't know much about the founding fathers or the early days of this country do you? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #17 November 10, 2004 QuoteIt explains why almost all currency in this county has the words "In GOD we trust" written on it. Why does the dollar have a pyramid, and the Eye of Horus on it? Is that proof the nation was founded on the principles of Egyptian mythology? In God We Trust wasn't on money until the 1860's, well after the establishment of this country. Many if not most of the founding fathers were agnostic or atheist. Perhaps you should be cracking the history books. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #18 November 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe fact is the USA has never been a Secular nation, and it was founded of religious principal. The US was was not "founded of religious principal". It is, in part, based in the freedom to practice any religion of your choosing without fear of reprisal. I would say that the US was founded on the absence of religious principles. And you would be wrong!!!! The USA was founded on Judeo-christian philisophy. If you have any doubts on that read a history book. It explains why almost all currency in this county has the words "In GOD we trust" written on it. The US did not want to have a "Religiou State" created, but did want religious practice of its people. You obviously don't know much about the founding fathers or the early days of this country do you? Certainly the belief in a higher power is evident in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, on our currency, in our Pledge, etc. However, the first amendment begins "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It is a small but very important distinction to make that our country was founded on freedom, not on religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #19 November 10, 2004 I didn't say it was FOuNDED on religion, I said it was founded on Judeo Christian Philosophy, without question! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 November 10, 2004 QuoteI didn't say it was FOuNDED on religion, I said it was founded on Judeo Christian Philosophy, without question! Bull.... do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." - Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed?" -John Adams "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. -John Adams Thomas Jefferson produced a revised New Testament deleting all references to miracles and portraying Jesus as just a extraordinary man and a powerful moral leader. John Quincy Adams was Unitarian "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." -James Madison Yes, many of the founding fathers believed in a creator or God. But many of them were Deists, not Christian. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #21 November 10, 2004 QuoteI didn't say it was FOuNDED on religion, I said it was founded on Judeo Christian Philosophy, without question! Well, since we have completely left the topic of this thread here is a link to the Declaration of Independence. http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html In the text, you will find laid out in almost bullet point format the specific reasons for the colonies to declare their independence from England. You will notice references to a belief in a higher power, but the specific reasons for the founding of our country had nothing to do with religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 November 10, 2004 I'm still wondering why the street 10 miles across town would be politically active, I don't get it? --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #23 November 10, 2004 PK - Judeo christian does not just mean Jew and Christian. This is commonly misunderstood. The laws of this land were based on the "Natual Law" sometimes refered to as God's Law. I am not saying Jefferson or Adams was a christian, what I am saying is that they believed this country needed to follow Natual/God's law in order to be successful. The 10 commandments, though not the only tool, was a tool in creating laws of the land. Separation of Church and state, again, not a law is and was designed to keep the Gov out of religion and not the other way around. The founding Fathers were smart... We can have religious politicians... we can have a religious President. As you know the president doesn't have the powere to pass any law over the land he or she wants. The Gov should represent the people of their juristiction. The Government can't tell the President he can not practice what ever religion he wants, however, if the people don't like what he is practicing they will have the final say with their vote. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #24 November 10, 2004 I like the following things, in no particular order: Beer Jeeps Sex Skydiving Scuba Flying [/pathetic attempt at threadjacking] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #25 November 10, 2004 QuoteNope, it is not relevant, and it is off subject. I am bring up a discussion of a letter writen by MLK and his views on civil rights. When I start a thread on foriegn Policy, it may become relevant :-) Just because you can't see the connection does not mean there isn't one. This thread is about what a dead guy "might have been" based on spoken and written words. So if you claim MLKJr would have been this, it follows naturally that George Washington would have been that, based on his farewell address of 1796.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
