Thoughts on Euthanasia

[diablopilot 2]

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Not trying to push God on you

Too late.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wmw999 2,577]

By the way, "we have settled on this as being the best way" can always be questioned. That might be an innate difference between people, those who are comfortable with questioning tradition and those who aren't.

Neither is right; neither is wrong. But they are implacably different.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pajarito 0]

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'Higher' level? Please elaborate.

Above & beyond? In a more exteme manner?

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Just for the record, I believe that noone would choose to die unless they really, really wanted to. Its not a decision that anyone, imo, would take lightly. If someone has gone that far down the line of no longer wanting to be alive, then one can only subject them to suffering and pain by denying their wish to die. I don't believe that [insert deity of choice here] would want that.

Whether he/she "really...really wan't it that way badly" or "has thought about it for a very long time" is completely beside the point I'm trying to make.

[pajarito 0]

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Not trying to push God on you

Too late.

Why, do you believe in God now?

[mr2mk1g 10]

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“God doesn’t believe in Atheists.” Eventually, everyone believes in God. Even if it’s after you’ve breathed your last breath.

According to Christians... but the hobo isn't a Christian. The argument does not follow.

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Again, majority rules. Christians are in the majority and shape laws.

Trouble is that's not the rules of the country in which you live. You have a constitutional separation of the church and the state. You can't simply say - it's illegal to commit suicide because it's an affront to God - that's against the law of the country in which you live. The constitution guarantees individuals won't be told what religious beliefs they must follow.

Either amend the constitution to allow your leader to force his God onto everyone or accept that you're not allowed to do so.

[Ripple 0]

I know you were referring to everyone, and I know there is a dictionary definition, but my take is:
Euthanasia - assisted suicide, when the patient/victim/whatever the definition, is unable to take their own life.
Suicide - when the person is able to take their own life.

But as well as that:
Euthanasia - when there is no chance of recovery.
Suicide - when there is.

Just my opinion.

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[pajarito 0]

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Pajarito, I used to think like you. Then I was discussing this topic with one of my NCO's, and he said one sentence that made me change my mind:

"You know, eltee, I could do some things to you that would have you begging me to kill you within five minutes."

Of course, he was right, and there are people out there who just want the pain to end. Is that cowardice, or pragmatism? In the words of Sun-Tzu, "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

I'm sorry you don't like me anymore. Although, I won't be less honest in what I say in order to get or keep friends. We all have pain. We all suffer in different ways. Some physically. Some mentally. Some to more extremes than others. By the way, I never said cowardice. I said selfishness.

[billvon 3,100]

> I think there's a lot more honor in fighting the battle to the end
>or finishing the race.

I've watched several people lose that battle, then watched as their hearts continued to beat for months. I don't think it makes any sense to force people to "live" as empty husks - and we should respect their wishes as to what to do with them while they are still capable of making decisions.

>I think suicide is a very selfish thing.

Of course it is. So is skydiving, and art, and exercise. Doesn't make any of those things bad. So is smoking and drinking; doesn't make those things good. We do selfish things because we are the stewards of our bodies, and we make decisions that affect it.

Allowing smoking but not suicide makes no sense at all. Why is it OK to decide to die a horribly painful, slow death but not OK to decide to end it sooner?

[Ripple 0]

Ok, more extreme. Still not sure how its more extreme.

As far as the point you're making, why on earth would making someone stay alive, in distress (for whatever reason) be what 'God' or anyone else wants?

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[diablopilot 2]

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Those moments were worth every ounce of effort on our parts.

To who? Her? Or you? If its worth it for you, THAT'S selfish.

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She was an extremely classy lady earlier in life and the shape that she was in would have disgusted her.

Uh-huh. But your "god" prevented you from acting on that, did it?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Eventually, everyone believes in God. Even if it's after you've breathed your last breath.

You're living in a fantasy.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ripple 0]

Just a little anecdote with reference to the 'you'll believe in God at the end'.

I was involved in an RTA, fractured this, that and the other. I was (apparently, can't remember) in quite a bit of pain (bit of a wuse) and, thus, was begging to be allowed to die. Apparently I didn't ask for God once, and that's from a good Catholic girl!

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[Douva 0]

I don't think the youth in Asia are any worse than they are in the rest of the world. Sure, they're rebellious and superficial, but that's really what youth is all about, right? I think before you start knocking the youth halfway around the world, you should take a long, hard look at the youth in your own backyard. Matthew 7:3-5

--Douva

PS. You really need to work on your spelling.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[diablopilot 2]

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Not trying to push God on you

Too late.

Why, do you believe in God now?

Nope, but thanks for trying, play again sometime.

I gave up "religion" in the 4th grade when I saw how hypocritical it all was. The "club" and "exclusion aspects made me sick.

I gave up "god" shortly there after, or at least the popular western concept of it. If I have any belief at all it would be closer inline with eastern/buddists theology.

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Christians are in the majority and shape laws.

Uh-huh. Don't let the Jews hear that. Statements like that verge on bigotry.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wmw999 2,577]

Well, here I'll disagree with you, dp... It would be bigotry to say that non-Christians should not participate because they're in the minority, or to do something about it.

But, well, there are probably more people who profess to some form of Christianity than other religions in the US, and, for many of them, it colors their whole core.

The problem is that so many of them figure that since their church has the right answer, all those other people who profess to be Christians are just the same as they are, or should be.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,100]

>Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide?

Moses asks god to kill him:

"I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.
And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness."

Judges: Sampson kills himself (and many others) and is a hero because of it.

Judges: Abimelech asks one of his troops to kill him so no one would know he had been injured by a woman; he is killed.

Judges: Saul commits suicide.

2 Samuel 17:23: "And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father."

Matthew: Judas kills himself.

But all that is sorta beside the point. Can you find a biblical basis for emancipation of the slaves, or blood transfusions, or allowing interracial marriages? The bible was written in a time when man could not artificially prolong life for remarkable amounts of time; it cannot hope to cover modern medical ethical decisions (although it does provide a basis for it.)

[diablopilot 2]

My take on his statment and the ones leading up to it insinuated that because of his claim Christians were ithe majority, they were "right".

Wrong.

If I read too much into it, so be it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,100]

>You're living in a fantasy.

Take it easy there, JP. He has a right to his opinion even if you disagree with it.

[diablopilot 2]

I agree. It's not an attack by any means.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[peregrinerose 0]

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As far as the point you're making, why on earth would making someone stay alive, in distress (for whatever reason) be what 'God' or anyone else wants?

I agree. Most of these people who want to be euthanized are on a LOT of medications, IVs, respirators, foley bags, catheters, feeding tubes, or some combination of the above. What is the difference between euthanasia and the person refusing all medical care?

It isn't God keeping these people alive, it is modern medicine.

If someone refuses all medical treatment, and the family supports this, they would not die in peace, it would be very slowly and quite possibly painfully. Isn't it far more humane to allow for euthaniasia?

Is refusal of medical care the same thing as suicide? Is it the same as euthanasia? Can a person be forced to maintain medications or other means to keep them alive? My feeling is that just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[unformed 0]

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As far as the point you're making, why on earth would making someone stay alive, in distress (for whatever reason) be what 'God' or anyone else wants?

I agree. Most of these people who want to be euthanized are on a LOT of medications, IVs, respirators, foley bags, catheters, feeding tubes, or some combination of the above. What is the difference between euthanasia and the person refusing all medical care?

It isn't God keeping these people alive, it is modern medicine.

If someone refuses all medical treatment, and the family supports this, they would not die in peace, it would be very slowly and quite possibly painfully. Isn't it far more humane to allow for euthaniasia?

Is refusal of medical care the same thing as suicide? Is it the same as euthanasia? Can a person be forced to maintain medications or other means to keep them alive? My feeling is that just because something can be done doesn't mean that it should be.

Jen

No, but because our lives are sacred we have to do everything possible to stay alive, use any new man-made technology to stay alive as long as we live, because by fighting our natural death while being in agonizing pain, somebody will feel get some faith or hope from it, maybe every now and then we'll have a few moments of realization and we can tell them how much we love them and it'll change their lives completely. Nevermind that the other 364 days of the year we'll be in agonizing pain and won't be able to function. But God loves us and wants us to live as long as possible.

[/sarcasm]

I'd rather live a life of one day in happiness than a hundred years in suffering -- something like that from "Bruce Lee"

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[lawrocket 3]

I wouldn't even say selfishness in some ways. When my ex-girlfriend had cancer, she wouldn't let me see her because she wanted to spare me (and everyone else) from seeing her like that.

Of course, there is a different issue. Christy Nichols was a friend and co-worker of mine in college in Santa Barbara. She helped her mother visit Jack Kevorkian. Here is her story:

http://www.freep.com/suicide/qkevo8.htm

One of those selfless suicides that ended up being selfish, and her mother's condition before her death tore up my friend for years.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Cajun 0]

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You’re diluting the conversation. Killing has always been around and the right or wrong of it is addressed in the Bible. You’re also picking and choosing from the faith what fits you personally. As with your (Christian?) acceptance of homosexuality. The Bible is very clear on that matter, yet you choose to ignore those parts and revert back to why don’t we all just “love one another?” That’s great and I agree but it doesn’t answer the specifics. It’s more complicated than that. Anything “real” usually is.

The same bible is also very clear on eating shell fish, and cutting your beard.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide? Not that it didn't happen in Biblical times but does God condone it?

Why must you insist on pushing your religion on people? Not all of us buy into your morals, your beliefs and certainly not the bible. Personally I think suicide/euthanasia should be considered as a last resort. But if someone wants to snuff themselves out because life as they know it is has become too painful to endure, let them do it. It's their life, not yours or your God's.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[unformed 0]

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Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide? Not that it didn't happen in Biblical times but does God condone it?

Why must you insist on pushing your religion on people? Not all of us buy into your morals, your beliefs and certainly not the bible. Personally I think suicide/euthanasia should be considered as a last resort. But if someone wants to snuff themselves out because life as they know it is has become too painful to endure, let them do it. It's their life, not yours or your God's.

But the majority of the people in the US believe in God, so we're voting that you do too. After all, he does exist, and you're my brother, so I'm just trying to save you from going to hell.

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