Peace

[BrianSGermain 1]

There is no such thing as fighting for peace.

Let's bring them home now, and send teachers and construction crews to replace the warriors.

If we do not go this route, the US will get attacked again. I don't like the idea of doing anything that bends to the demands of terrorists, but I also hate violence more than I am attached to my national ego.

Get 'em home...right now.
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[beowulf 1]

Ironically history has shown that peace is kept by war. There will always be people willing to go to war for what they want. If we don't defend ourselves then we will be over run by those that are willing to kill to get what they want.


Till someone goes and changes the fundamental makeup and psychology of humans there will always be wars.

[meltdown 0]

"If we do not go this route, the US will get attacked again"

So, you think they everything will be hunky dory if we just bring home the troops? The radical elements have been attacking us for years (1st WTC bombing, african embassies, USS Cole, etc), and they are not going to stop, period. Until they are destroyed, that is.

[wmw999 2,567]

While I think it's early to send only teachers and the like (they'd get massacred), by sending only soldiers so far, we're making it clear to other countries what our values are.

Our way or the highway.

That's not what the US was founded on. It was founded on respect for the individual, and for the strength that comes from individuals with differences being able to band together for a common goal. And it comes from that common goal not being redefined as all-encompassing, so that people can live their own lives in peace.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mattjw916 2]

We HAVE sent a lot more than just soldiers over there you know.

...and the "common goal" we banded together for, was to not pay taxes to the monarchy.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kamih 0]

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Ironically history has shown that peace is kept by war. There will always be people willing to go to war for what they want. If we don't defend ourselves then we will be over run by those that are willing to kill to get what they want.

Yup, that's almost the same words Bin Laden uses to 'justify' 911.

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Till someone goes and changes the fundamental makeup and psychology of humans there will always be wars.

Agreed, but proper education and knowledge of real history for the masses would be a great start.

[wmw999 2,567]

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and the "common goal" we banded together for, was to not pay taxes to the monarchy.

There's a little more to it than that. It wasn't taxation per se, it was taxation without representation. Big difference.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Falko 0]

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Until they are destroyed, that is.

How naive is that?
Do you still live in that old Nintendo-dream-world where at the end of Level 10 you kill the big Robo-enemy, you get a Hi-Score, go home with the princess and everything will be Lubbydubby forever?

Some people just won't understand that the so-called "War on Terror" can NEVER be "won". The wording itself is stupidly polemic and suggesting that it's a "fight" which if fought hard enough, could be won.
It's much more complicated than that.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Frenchy68 0]

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taxation without representation

And in the spirit the forefathers, I am starting my own tea party! Have been paying taxes for year, did not get to vote yesterday!

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Gravitymaster 0]

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While I think it's early to send only teachers and the like (they'd get massacred), by sending only soldiers so far, we're making it clear to other countries what our values are.

Our way or the highway.

That's not what the US was founded on. It was founded on respect for the individual, and for the strength that comes from individuals with differences being able to band together for a common goal. And it comes from that common goal not being redefined as all-encompassing, so that people can live their own lives in peace.

Wendy W.

Now all we need to do is get the terrorists to go along with us and everything will be wonderful.

[Kennedy 0]

I hope you realize that (A) we have a lot of teachers and construction people over there right now, and (B) the more teachers we send over there, the more the radicals accuse us of indoctrinating their young and attacking their religion.

Taking our soldiers out of the country will just give the bad guys more hostages and targets to do with what they will. The soldiers are there for a reason, and bringing them home would result in horrible consequences.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[mattjw916 2]

Um, yeah, that's the grade school version... the Revolutionary War, like essentially all wars, was really about money. The Civil War, the conflicts with the Native Americans, the Gulf War, etc... all have a common denominator. Money.

Rarely, if ever, is a war fought on purely ideological grounds.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[BrianSGermain 1]

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I hope you realize that (A) we have a lot of teachers and construction people over there right now, and (B) the more teachers we send over there, the more the radicals accuse us of indoctrinating their young and attacking their religion.

Taking our soldiers out of the country will just give the bad guys more hostages and targets to do with what they will. The soldiers are there for a reason, and bringing them home would result in horrible consequences.

It is our fear that causes Americans with guns to be sent to place that puts them in danger. It is exactly that situation that is creating the climate of fear. They don't want American flags or American troops on their streets any more than we would want them running on our streets. We should be there to help, or walk away and allow other nations to take over that do not represent such a target for hatred. If we want the world to cool down, we need to stop feeding the fire.

Moving forward in the wrong direction is not moving forward at all.
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[meltdown 0]

Until they are destroyed, that is.
------------------------------------------------------------How naive is that?
Do you still live in that old Nintendo-dream-world where at the end of Level 10 you kill the big Robo-enemy, you get a Hi-Score, go home with the princess and everything will be Lubbydubby forever?

Some people just won't understand that the so-called "War on Terror" can NEVER be "won". The wording itself is stupidly polemic and suggesting that it's a "fight" which if fought hard enough, could be won.
It's much more complicated than that.
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No, in fact I don't live in that world you described. Never have. I live in the world where assholes fly planes into buildings filled with people. If you think I'm "naive" or an idiot or whatever because I want to rid the world of these types, so be it. I really could care less. You can be as clever and condescending as you want, if it makes you feel better (I admit it, I'm just a stupid American), but that won't change the facts. If nobody had had the balls to oppose Hitler, where would the world be now? I suppose they should have just tried to understand him, right?

[beowulf 1]

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Ironically history has shown that peace is kept by war. There will always be people willing to go to war for what they want. If we don't defend ourselves then we will be over run by those that are willing to kill to get what they want.

Yup, that's almost the same words Bin Laden uses to 'justify' 911.



yeah it is very similar to their justification. The difference is that their core reason is they feel that American culture has made a very detrimental influence in their Islamic culture. That may be so but attacking the US isn't going to help their cause that much.

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Till someone goes and changes the fundamental makeup and psychology of humans there will always be wars.

Agreed, but proper education and knowledge of real history for the masses would be a great start.

Proper education and knowledge will not help. The key problem is greed, selfishness and hate. Those things are emotional problems that tend to over come intelectual reasoning. Everyone would rather do what feels good. It is very hard to do what is right even when it doesn't feel good.

[BrianSGermain 1]

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No, in fact I don't live in that world you described. Never have. I live in the world where assholes fly planes into buildings filled with people. If you think I'm "naive" or an idiot or whatever because I want to rid the world of these types, so be it. I really could care less. You can be as clever and condescending as you want, if it makes you feel better (I admit it, I'm just a stupid American), but that won't change the facts. If nobody had had the balls to oppose Hitler, where would the world be now? I suppose they should have just tried to understand him, right?

I hear your fear, driving you toward what you fear most. You are not alone. If we want to feel safer, we need to focus on what we want to avoid, and what the exact causes are of our present situation. The US has been sticking its troops to a place where they are not welcome. That is why the tragedy of 9/11 occured. It was not a blind stab at freedom as many jingoistic rable-rousers would suggest. They want us to hold to our original National Doctrine: "No Involvement In Foreign Wars".

If they want to fight each other, that is their choice. We need to keep our fingers out of that barbeque. Just because you get burnt, doesn't mean you have to dump lighter fluid on it to try and put it out.

This is not WWII. Iraq was no angel, but that country had nothing to do with 9/11. We were hurt, but this is just misplaced aggression. Bush wanted to show the world that we are strong, so he picked a kid that he thought he could take, and he beat the crap out of him. This is playground politics, not adult behavior.

Home.
Peace.
Appologize.
Now.
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[wildblue 7]

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Ironically history has shown that peace is kept by war.

Actually, these days it seems to be kept more by assured destruction. I think all we've accomplished by going into Iraq this time is doing away with that threat. Now the possible threats to the world are thinking "Well, I can invade this country over here and be overrun by the US... or I can not invade this country over here.... and still be invaded by the US."

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[kamih 0]

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yeah it is very similar to their justification. The difference is that their core reason is they feel that American culture has made a very detrimental influence in their Islamic culture.

You can read the whole unedited transcript of Ben Laden's last video here:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm
but that's not really true (and please do not insult me by thinking that I agree with this terrorist).
You say that they don't like the US influencing their culture, but if you think about it, the arabic monarchies have clearly influenced the US, especially when you look at the Bush familly and its ties to the military.
And I mean come on, everyone likes coke

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That may be so but attacking the US isn't going to help their cause that much.

and attacking Iraq is only worsening the US's cause.

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Proper education and knowledge will not help. The key problem is greed, selfishness and hate. Those things are emotional problems that tend to over come intelectual reasoning. Everyone would rather do what feels good. It is very hard to do what is right even when it doesn't feel good.

I never said it would be easy. Like Brian said, it's just adding oil to the fire now. And we should all be focusing on trying to put it out rather than bickering about why it started .

[Jib 0]

If we bring them home now, we invite civil chaos and a country run by organized crime and/or zealots. That would be turning our backs on the people that tried to help us and ensure their deaths.

As for teachers and construction crews, did you read that they kidnapped six women in the past six months in addition to the people whose heads the chop off. The workers would be lambs heading to sluaghter. I also believe the zealots would take it as a sign of weakness and our failure, which would only fuel them.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[BrianSGermain 1]

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If we bring them home now, we invite civil chaos and a country run by organized crime and/or zealots. That would be turning our backs on the people that tried to help us and ensure their deaths.

As for teachers and construction crews, did you read that they kidnapped six women in the past six months in addition to the people whose heads the chop off. The workers would be lambs heading to sluaghter. I also believe the zealots would take it as a sign of weakness and our failure, which would only fuel them.

I hear your concerns. The perservation of human life is the primary concern here. The reason people are getting their heads chopped off is simple: there are people with guns running around their streets with American flags on their sleeves. If that were not the case, and the troops were removed, we would be much closer to the goal of letting them govern themselves as a sovereign nation, and heads could stay attached to their necks.

Unfortunately, that is not really the goal of our current administration. The people in power in this nation are primarily concerned with the flow of oil our of the region, and how it will effect the American economy. If the preservation of human life and each individual's rights to live free were the real goal, we would not be attacking or occupying anybody. Picking a fight just perpetuates the cycle of violence.

If we want everyone to be free, we should let them be free. That is not what the US is doing there. We are stirring up a hornets nest, and we will call them barbarians when we get stung. They are simply defending their teritory, as we would if we were invaded.

Let them be free.
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[Falko 0]

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I live in the world where assholes fly planes into buildings filled with people.

Same world as mine, by the way. And even though 9/11 didn't hit my country directly, you'd be surprised how much of a shock this was in Europe, and how many people here have showed solidarity with the United States.

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If you think I'm "naive" or an idiot or whatever because I want to rid the world of these types, so be it.

Who wouldn't want to rid the world of terrorists? Where I disagree is "how" we do this, or better, how we prevent the creation of new fundamentalists that maybe turn into extremists and terrorists.
Believing we can just "exterminate" them is what I call "naive". I stand by that.

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You can be as clever and condescending as you want, if it makes you feel better (I admit it, I'm just a stupid American), but that won't change the facts.

"the stupid American" is just another of these ridiculous clichees. Like frog-eating frenchies and germans in leather-trousers.

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If nobody had had the balls to oppose Hitler, where would the world be now?

Why do so many americans always bring up Hitler if a german criticizes the way the US acts in the world?
To answer your question: The world would be in deep shit if the Allied Forces hadn't won WW2.
But that's not the issue *today*. Today it's about the unilateral policies of the US and a preemptive war on a country that posed no clear and present danger to the US at the time. And the Hype around the so-called "War On Terror" gives the impression that it's "Good against Evil", and that "the good" could prevail with military means. That's just BS!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[Jib 0]

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I hear your concerns. The perservation of human life is the primary concern here. The reason people are getting their heads chopped off is simple: there are people with guns running around their streets with American flags on their sleeves. If that were not the case, and the troops were removed, we would be much closer to the goal of letting them govern themselves as a sovereign nation, and heads could stay attached to their necks.

That's part of the problem. The indoctrination and favoritism of Saddam is deeply engrained into Iraq. I do not believe that the people have the ability at this point to govern themselves without assistance from a stable military or police force. Our leaving would lead to warlords, I fear.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[meltdown 0]

But that's not the issue *today*. Today it's about the unilateral policies of the US and a preemptive war on a country that posed no clear and present danger to the US at the time.
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Why do people continue to use phrases like "unilateral" or "go it alone"? If it were the US only, that would be unilateral. It's not the US only, therefore it's not unilateral. In fact, if so many European countries weren't suckling the oil for food nipple, we probably would have had more countries with us. And I don't know about you, but I remember a UN resolution that clearly stated that Iraq possessed WMD, and the best intelligence of the civilized world backed that up. Unfortunately, when the time came for the UN to walk the walk instead of just talk the talk, they showed what they are really made of - and it's pretty pathetic. And so we have the coalition of the willing. Which is far from "unilateral" I might add.

[Tonto 1]

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If we don't defend ourselves then we will be over run by those that are willing to kill to get what they want.

Have you looked at a map lately? Who's doing the defending and who's doing the overunning?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[BrianSGermain 1]

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That's part of the problem. The indoctrination and favoritism of Saddam is deeply engrained into Iraq. I do not believe that the people have the ability at this point to govern themselves without assistance from a stable military or police force. Our leaving would lead to warlords, I fear.

Our fear can get us killed. That simple means of government is how that region of the world worked before Saddam, and it may resort to that for a while. If that is what they are ready for, that is what they will do. Trying to force "democracy" on a region that is not ready for it will be a waste of energy.

I think the best thing to do it to step back and lead a good example. The example we are setting by attacking other countries is not the image that we want to send out there. We need to thrive and entice the world to do the same. We need to let others be, but inspire them to live in peace, and work toward creating a healthy civilization.

We cannot force this. It will take time. We can send them aid; we can send them seeds to plant. But we absolutely cannot make peace with guns.
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