SkyDekker 1,465 #1 November 1, 2004 I am wondering what Bush suporters feel is the reason why, as it would appear, the majority of the world population seems to support Kerry? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #2 November 1, 2004 Ah now, to be fair, don't take criticism of one candidate to be the same as approval of the other.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #3 November 1, 2004 QuoteAh now, to be fair, don't take criticism of one candidate to be the same as approval of the other. I am not. I do find it interesting to see how close the race is in the US, yet outside the US there is a very clear picture of who the winner would be. I am interested to hear the reasoning from Americans and even more interestingly from Bush supporters as to why they think that is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #4 November 1, 2004 Chances are good that folks outside of the US are more aware of Bush's foreign policy than his domestic policy, and so they judge him mainly on that because its the part they care about more in terms of the possible effect it can have on them. I think many nations outside of the US were a little peeved when Bush bypassed the UN to lead the "coalition of the willing". It made him look somewhat like a world bully and didn't earn him brownie points with many foreign nations. Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" is being broadcast on television tonight here in South Africa. Most South Africans are not entirely up to speed on many of the "real truths" about Bush and his administration, and so it's likely that many here will accept this film at face value ...and support Bush a little bit less by tomorrow. -No 'mericans were harmed during the making of this post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #5 November 1, 2004 QuoteI am interested to hear the reasoning from Americans... Why? Truthfully, I don't see that public opinion in the rest of the world is terribly important to how we conduct our own affairs. The US has a long history of meddling in the internal politics of sovereign nations. I think it's a bad idea. I think it's an equally bad idea to have other nations meddling in the internal politics of the US.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #6 November 1, 2004 Quote Truthfully, I don't see that public opinion in the rest of the world is terribly important to how we conduct our own affairs. Why? It's simple. Global Economy. The USA cannot survive without imports from other countries, and vice versa. Look at what happens to a country like Cuba or Libya that go off on their own and do things without approval from the world. How many things do we need to F'up before you think the UN leaves this country and countries start talking about sanctions for us? Plus, we force our vision and view upon all other countries and cultures out there, and since we didn't like the way two governments went about their work, we took them out. If we are going to play that game, then its only fair that the world demands that from us. Some may think we need to focus on what this country needs, and only what we need. In my opinion, its not focus but a myopic vision of the world that allows us to get blindsided. Our blinders allowed the events of 9/11 to unfold. Maybe its time we took them off._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #7 November 1, 2004 QuoteWhy? Because I find it interesting. QuoteTruthfully, I don't see that public opinion in the rest of the world is terribly important to how we conduct our own affairs. The rest of the world has noticed that, might be one of the reasons? I don't know, that is why I am asking. QuoteThe US has a long history of meddling in the internal politics of sovereign nations. I think it's a bad idea. I think it's an equally bad idea to have other nations meddling in the internal politics of the US. People giving their opinion is not quite the same as meddeling with your elections. I agree, there should be no meddeling from outside the US. Remains though, that it is interesting that this would not be a close race outside of the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #8 November 1, 2004 Look at it this way. I don't believe I care what you think of how my wife and I run our household. I don't care which of us you think ought to cook, or which you think ought to be on top in bed. I don't care if you disapprove of our choice of television programs, or how we decide to raise out children. I don't like the missionaries who knock on my door and try to convince me I ought to be living by their interpretation of God's rules. I don't want busybody neighbors who try to tell me how to mow my lawn. I don't like the government telling me what weapons I'm allowed to have. You're welcome to manage your own household your own way. But walking into someone else's and telling them how they ought to run it is basically just rude.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #9 November 1, 2004 Quote You're welcome to manage your own household your own way. But walking into someone else's and telling them how they ought to run it is basically just rude. Hmmmm....so following that logic, waltzing into Afghan and Iraq was rude? We cared so much about what was happening in those two houses that we didn't knock on the door, we blew up the entire neighborhood._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #10 November 1, 2004 QuoteI am wondering what Bush suporters feel is the reason why, as it would appear, the majority of the world population seems to support Kerry? Where is your source?? I just need to know what countries we are talking about. My reasons would be this if we are talking about Europe and canada and such. Typically these nations are more socialistic than the USA. Kerry being one of the most Liberal Sen's in the US and being borderline Socialistic probably appeals to those nations. Bush meanwhile is more conservative and has more of a Me first the rest of the world later mentality. That being said... The rest of the world doesn't elect US presidents thankfully, and we will decide on our own. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 November 1, 2004 QuoteHmmmm....so following that logic, waltzing into Afghan and Iraq was rude? From my initial post in this thread: QuoteThe US has a long history of meddling in the internal politics of sovereign nations. I think it's a bad idea. I think it's an equally bad idea to have other nations meddling in the internal politics of the US. (emphasis added)-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #12 November 1, 2004 QuoteLook at it this way. I don't believe I care what you think of how my wife and I run our household. I don't care which of us you think ought to cook, or which you think ought to be on top in bed. I don't care if you disapprove of our choice of television programs, or how we decide to raise out children. I don't like the missionaries who knock on my door and try to convince me I ought to be living by their interpretation of God's rules. I don't want busybody neighbors who try to tell me how to mow my lawn. I don't like the government telling me what weapons I'm allowed to have. You're welcome to manage your own household your own way. But walking into someone else's and telling them how they ought to run it is basically just rude. Uhmm, I think we have a bit of a miscommunication going here. Let's say your wife cooks, let's say you love your wife's cooking. No let's assume 81% of those who have tried your wifes cooking say it is awefull... My question is: why you think that is. Not telling your wife how to cook, not telling you how to do it better, nothing like that. Just asking for an explanantion... If your answer is, I don't give a rats ass about teh rest of the world. America doesn't care about the rest of the world, we don't need them......Well, I guess my response to that would be, shame you think that way.....Guess we won't be shipping that flu vaccine or supply your seniors with cheap medication Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #13 November 1, 2004 QuoteLet's say your wife cooks, let's say you love your wife's cooking. No let's assume 81% of those who have tried your wifes cooking say it is awefull... My question is: why you think that is. Not telling your wife how to cook, not telling you how to do it better, nothing like that. Just asking for an explanantion... How about: Because my wife cooks to my tastes, which are different from the tastes of 81% of those who have tried her cooking. Same as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #14 November 1, 2004 QuoteWhere is your source?? This Led me to the question. I know it is skewed by European countries, though I am not convinced the left leaning trends are solely to blame. Extreme right wing parties have certainly gained popularity in many parts of Europe over the years.... QuoteThe rest of the world doesn't elect US presidents thankfully, and we will decide on our own. And it should be that way as well. You guys are very touchy about the outside world and your elections. Hope you understand that asking questions and meddling are very different things...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #15 November 1, 2004 QuoteSame as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them. True, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #16 November 1, 2004 QuoteTrue, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. I'd definitely say this is true. We have a whole different set of values.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #17 November 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteSame as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them. True, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. It seems to me that this has been the accusation that the "Ugly American" has been dealing with for, oh, over 200 years. We do not do things like Germany, who does things differently from Spain, who is different from France, who operates differently from Britain, who does things differently from Belgium, etc. Europeans don't like each other much. I know the Brits do not like the Belgians, Turks, Greeks, etc. Hell, Brits really don't like each other much. But, there are a lot more similarities between Europeans than America and Europe. Europe despises the American view that our way of doing things is better. Why is this? Do the Europeans think that America is all wrong? I suspect the latter to be the case, in which event, Europe is no better than America. America is up front about our belief that our system is superior, unlike Europeans. We are upfront with the belief that Americans can disagree with what we do, but foreigners, if they don't like it, should send a couple of cruise missiles our way (which, of course, they cannot). The American ethos is strangely proud of being the bad guy. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #18 November 1, 2004 QuoteDo the Europeans think that America is all wrong? A leading French newspaper conducted a survey a couple of weeks ago, asking people what their view was of America. Around 80% of respondents stated they liked the US, around the same number stated they liked American, and a similar percentage stated they did not like the current US foreign policy actions. I think simplifying to the "they don't like us" rethoric is missing the point. In my personal experience, the figures that came back from the survey are pretty accurate. I'll admit there are people who dislike Americans, much like there are Americans who dislike the French (or other nationalities). But the current feeling of animosity is due mostly I believe to the US actions in the middle east. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,109 #19 November 1, 2004 >I don't believe I care what you think of how my wife and I run our household. Really? I care what my neighbors think of us. On the north side, a neighbor once asked us to take down our TV antenna because it 'ruined his view.' We moved it about ten feet; it made him happy. We told him we were going to build up the slope behind our house and it would extend into his yard; he liked that because he wanted to do that too. We warn our other neighbors when we're going to have loud parties, and they tell us when they're going to be away etc. That's just common courtesy, I think. It's not that they are physically close, it's that I do things that might affect them (and vice versa.) When we do things that affect people on a global scale (like changing the climate) it's common courtesy to respect other people's views on the issue as well. At least IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #20 November 1, 2004 Common courtesy is good. Walking into your neighbors house and telling him he must move his TV antenna is bad. I guess what I'm driving at is that there is a difference between organizing your life a certain way and believing that everyone else ought to organize their lives in the same way.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,109 #21 November 1, 2004 > Common courtesy is good. Walking into your neighbors house and >telling him he must move his TV antenna is bad. Well, in our case, he walked onto our yard and said he'd like it if we moved our TV antenna. No problem with that. And if he ever puts up an annoying satellite dish, or his palm tree starts shading my array, then it's likely that he'll be amenable to fixing it. >I guess what I'm driving at is that there is a difference between >organizing your life a certain way and believing that everyone else ought >to organize their lives in the same way. I guess the difference is that I don't care. If someone wants to talk to me about religion, fine - as long as they go away when it gets boring. I know a lot of people who think that I shouldn't do X, Y and Z, because it's too dangerous, or too strange, or bad morally, or whatever - and I just don't care. Now, if they try to _force_ me to do (or not do) any of those things, then it becomes a problem. But that's where diplomacy comes in - the art of getting people to do what you want _without_ forcing them to do it. And that's a useful and rational way to solve conflicts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #22 November 1, 2004 QuoteWell, in our case, he walked onto our yard and said he'd like it if we moved our TV antenna. No problem with that. And if he ever puts up an annoying satellite dish, or his palm tree starts shading my array, then it's likely that he'll be amenable to fixing it. I tend to agree with you on foreign policy. Using diplomacy, rather than force, and trying to get along is pretty much the "right" way to conduct foreign policy. Being influenced by opinion polls in foreign nations, such that I change my vote here? I think that's a little too far.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #23 November 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteI am wondering what Bush suporters feel is the reason why, as it would appear, the majority of the world population seems to support Kerry? Where is your source?? I just need to know what countries we are talking about. Here's a few articles on the same poll that was conducted in 10 different countries around the world: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/20/Columns/Poll__World_s_opinion.shtml http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/111840/1/.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/488983.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/viewsofamerica/story/0,15221,1327971,00.html In short, it included Canada, Great Britain, France, Spain, Russia, Mexico, Australia, South Korea, Israel and Japan. Everywhere except Israel and Russia, respondents favour Kerry over Bush. Additionally, the poll showed that while many people don't think fondly GWB, most of them don't extend their dislike to all Americans. BTW, my guess is that these results have less to do with the appeal Kerry's liberal views may hold for 'left-leaning' countries and more with how they feel about GWB's foreign policy so far. Which brings us to this; QuoteThat being said... The rest of the world doesn't elect US presidents thankfully, and we will decide on our own. I find your current situation quite amusing, really- on one hand, who you elect will undoubtedly have a noticeable effect on the rest of the world. And yet it would be absurd to vote based only on what would be better for everyone else and not what you think would benefit your own country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #24 November 1, 2004 Justin, To simply answer your question, I do not support Kerry. And according to the polls I am seeing, there is no clear leader. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dtpilot 0 #25 November 1, 2004 I have been all over the world lately and I have got the impression just opposite of yours. Bush is very popular in Romainia for example. Bush has done something that most would have been afraid to do. He got rid of the next Hitler. "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!" -- Friedrich Nietzsche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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TomAiello 26 #13 November 1, 2004 QuoteLet's say your wife cooks, let's say you love your wife's cooking. No let's assume 81% of those who have tried your wifes cooking say it is awefull... My question is: why you think that is. Not telling your wife how to cook, not telling you how to do it better, nothing like that. Just asking for an explanantion... How about: Because my wife cooks to my tastes, which are different from the tastes of 81% of those who have tried her cooking. Same as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #14 November 1, 2004 QuoteWhere is your source?? This Led me to the question. I know it is skewed by European countries, though I am not convinced the left leaning trends are solely to blame. Extreme right wing parties have certainly gained popularity in many parts of Europe over the years.... QuoteThe rest of the world doesn't elect US presidents thankfully, and we will decide on our own. And it should be that way as well. You guys are very touchy about the outside world and your elections. Hope you understand that asking questions and meddling are very different things...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #15 November 1, 2004 QuoteSame as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them. True, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #16 November 1, 2004 QuoteTrue, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. I'd definitely say this is true. We have a whole different set of values.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #17 November 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteSame as political leaders in a democracy. They lead to the tastes of those who elected them. True, but that would mean that Americans are significantly different in view point from many other Western countries. It seems to me that this has been the accusation that the "Ugly American" has been dealing with for, oh, over 200 years. We do not do things like Germany, who does things differently from Spain, who is different from France, who operates differently from Britain, who does things differently from Belgium, etc. Europeans don't like each other much. I know the Brits do not like the Belgians, Turks, Greeks, etc. Hell, Brits really don't like each other much. But, there are a lot more similarities between Europeans than America and Europe. Europe despises the American view that our way of doing things is better. Why is this? Do the Europeans think that America is all wrong? I suspect the latter to be the case, in which event, Europe is no better than America. America is up front about our belief that our system is superior, unlike Europeans. We are upfront with the belief that Americans can disagree with what we do, but foreigners, if they don't like it, should send a couple of cruise missiles our way (which, of course, they cannot). The American ethos is strangely proud of being the bad guy. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #18 November 1, 2004 QuoteDo the Europeans think that America is all wrong? A leading French newspaper conducted a survey a couple of weeks ago, asking people what their view was of America. Around 80% of respondents stated they liked the US, around the same number stated they liked American, and a similar percentage stated they did not like the current US foreign policy actions. I think simplifying to the "they don't like us" rethoric is missing the point. In my personal experience, the figures that came back from the survey are pretty accurate. I'll admit there are people who dislike Americans, much like there are Americans who dislike the French (or other nationalities). But the current feeling of animosity is due mostly I believe to the US actions in the middle east. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,109 #19 November 1, 2004 >I don't believe I care what you think of how my wife and I run our household. Really? I care what my neighbors think of us. On the north side, a neighbor once asked us to take down our TV antenna because it 'ruined his view.' We moved it about ten feet; it made him happy. We told him we were going to build up the slope behind our house and it would extend into his yard; he liked that because he wanted to do that too. We warn our other neighbors when we're going to have loud parties, and they tell us when they're going to be away etc. That's just common courtesy, I think. It's not that they are physically close, it's that I do things that might affect them (and vice versa.) When we do things that affect people on a global scale (like changing the climate) it's common courtesy to respect other people's views on the issue as well. At least IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #20 November 1, 2004 Common courtesy is good. Walking into your neighbors house and telling him he must move his TV antenna is bad. I guess what I'm driving at is that there is a difference between organizing your life a certain way and believing that everyone else ought to organize their lives in the same way.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,109 #21 November 1, 2004 > Common courtesy is good. Walking into your neighbors house and >telling him he must move his TV antenna is bad. Well, in our case, he walked onto our yard and said he'd like it if we moved our TV antenna. No problem with that. And if he ever puts up an annoying satellite dish, or his palm tree starts shading my array, then it's likely that he'll be amenable to fixing it. >I guess what I'm driving at is that there is a difference between >organizing your life a certain way and believing that everyone else ought >to organize their lives in the same way. I guess the difference is that I don't care. If someone wants to talk to me about religion, fine - as long as they go away when it gets boring. I know a lot of people who think that I shouldn't do X, Y and Z, because it's too dangerous, or too strange, or bad morally, or whatever - and I just don't care. Now, if they try to _force_ me to do (or not do) any of those things, then it becomes a problem. But that's where diplomacy comes in - the art of getting people to do what you want _without_ forcing them to do it. And that's a useful and rational way to solve conflicts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #22 November 1, 2004 QuoteWell, in our case, he walked onto our yard and said he'd like it if we moved our TV antenna. No problem with that. And if he ever puts up an annoying satellite dish, or his palm tree starts shading my array, then it's likely that he'll be amenable to fixing it. I tend to agree with you on foreign policy. Using diplomacy, rather than force, and trying to get along is pretty much the "right" way to conduct foreign policy. Being influenced by opinion polls in foreign nations, such that I change my vote here? I think that's a little too far.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #23 November 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteI am wondering what Bush suporters feel is the reason why, as it would appear, the majority of the world population seems to support Kerry? Where is your source?? I just need to know what countries we are talking about. Here's a few articles on the same poll that was conducted in 10 different countries around the world: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/20/Columns/Poll__World_s_opinion.shtml http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/111840/1/.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/488983.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/viewsofamerica/story/0,15221,1327971,00.html In short, it included Canada, Great Britain, France, Spain, Russia, Mexico, Australia, South Korea, Israel and Japan. Everywhere except Israel and Russia, respondents favour Kerry over Bush. Additionally, the poll showed that while many people don't think fondly GWB, most of them don't extend their dislike to all Americans. BTW, my guess is that these results have less to do with the appeal Kerry's liberal views may hold for 'left-leaning' countries and more with how they feel about GWB's foreign policy so far. Which brings us to this; QuoteThat being said... The rest of the world doesn't elect US presidents thankfully, and we will decide on our own. I find your current situation quite amusing, really- on one hand, who you elect will undoubtedly have a noticeable effect on the rest of the world. And yet it would be absurd to vote based only on what would be better for everyone else and not what you think would benefit your own country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #24 November 1, 2004 Justin, To simply answer your question, I do not support Kerry. And according to the polls I am seeing, there is no clear leader. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dtpilot 0 #25 November 1, 2004 I have been all over the world lately and I have got the impression just opposite of yours. Bush is very popular in Romainia for example. Bush has done something that most would have been afraid to do. He got rid of the next Hitler. "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!" -- Friedrich Nietzsche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
