peacefuljeffrey 0 #51 October 29, 2004 QuoteAnd if anyone posts Troll regarding America... or Bush... then I would say the same thing.. I am happy to discuss any issue, and also happy to point out when someone is being derogatory for no other purpose than to offend or create a reaction. Ooh! Ooh! I'm gonna go rush over to the "FAT AMERICA" thread and see if I can get there before you hurriedly add your condemnation of the mean-spirited attack on American culture! -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #52 October 29, 2004 Sorry Jeffry I disagree. Yes you raised a perfectly valid issue. BUT - you littered it with nationalistic slander that I can only assume you did out of a desire to provoke. If you want to be taken seriously, its very simple. Talk about this issues and not 'How crazy britain is' or how stupid the 'brits' are. If you think an ASBO is a bad idea just say that! If you dont want to be seen as a troll, dont post things that clearly look like it! As for Billvon putting me under an ASBO - nice reference - but I do believe I saw you call someone a 'pinhead' a short while ago ASBO your way! Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #53 October 29, 2004 QuoteHell, what I am talking to you about international relations for I don't know, but you seem to have switched to "talkin' ghetto." "What my name is?! -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #54 October 29, 2004 lol... it took me a while to see what you meant there! looked ok the fist time I typed and read it! Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #55 October 29, 2004 Quotelol... it took me a while to see what you meant there! looked ok the fist time I typed and read it! LOL! Uh oh... Are British eyes getting to be as bad as their teeth?! -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #56 October 29, 2004 QuoteYou really need to stop calling me a troll, because it not only is an inapplicable epithet, it amounts to a personal insult, and forum rules forbid that. Don't be silly. If you are Trolling he can tell you that you are a troll. That is not a personal insult - it is pointing out to you that you are breaking the rules. Go read them - they're here:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=142088 Note how Sangiro states: QuotePersonal attacks on another user are a great way to earn some time off, as is posting inflammatory material specifically to provoke a negative response from someone (aka trolling). What people here are telling you is that you are breaking the rules in exactly the same way as a personal attack. The two offences are listed in the same sentence - they carry the same penalty and are patently seen as being just as bad as one another by the owner of this site. Post about ASBO's if you want - in a civilised conversation I will happily answer what questions you have about them. I can point out where you are wrong, give you some hints as to why you might want to think again about some elements of your argument - hell I can even point out a few elements of the system you might genuinely have some issues with. But when you post: Quote"ASBOs are yet another further indication that the British criminal justice system is utterly, absolutely inept, corrupt, and incompetent, and it has simply thrown up its hands and all-but-admitted, 'We just don't know what the fuck to do!' " all you do is highlight that your thread is simply an attempt to continue your silly little vendetta against the Brits that post here. It is nothing more than an inflammatory attempt to cause arguments. It belies the fact that you have absolutely no interest in a genuine discussion about ASBO's; you simply want to continue the arguments we were having in the recent gun thread that you have been unable to resurrect. This thread is a TROLL. TROLLS are banned by the forum rules in the same way personal attacks are. The punishment is a ban if you fail to take on board moderator’s warnings. I suggest you think again about the tone you are using and actually read the rules you are expected to abide by. If you genuinely wish to discuss ASBO's please feel free to start a thread opening with actual discussion as opposed to the trite with which you opened this thread. And finally - grow up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #57 October 29, 2004 Quoteall you do is highlight that your thread is simply an attempt to continue your silly little vendetta against the Brits that post here. It is nothing more than an inflammatory attempt to cause arguments. It belies the fact that you have absolutely no interest in a genuine discussion about ASBO's; you simply want to continue the arguments we were having in the recent gun thread that you have been unable to resurrect. This thread is a TROLL. TROLLS are banned by the forum rules in the same way personal attacks are. The punishment is a ban if you fail to take on board moderator’s warnings. You seem to be willfully confusing my starting a discussion thread with an emphatic opinion offered at the same time, with trolling. QuoteI suggest you think again about the tone you are using and actually read the rules you are expected to abide by. You believe I'm not. I believe I am. No one has been specifically singled-out with epithets or insults (unlike your calling me a troll), and I have started a good-faith thread that I have remained in to discuss the issue. We've been unfortunately sidetracked by your calling me a troll, which is hypocritical since Brits have, as has been mentioned, jumped on the bandwagon of "troll" threads like the "fat Americans" one, and ANY of the ones about Bush! QuoteAnd finally - grow up. Now FOR SURE I have seen someone get at least a warning for telling someone else to do exactly that. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #58 October 29, 2004 QuoteNo one has been specifically singled-out with epithets or insults You don't have to do that in a post in order for you post to be a troll. Read the rules. A troll is an inflamatory post which is designed to solicit a negative response as opposed to a discussion. You said: Quote "ASBOs are yet another further indication that the British criminal justice system is utterly, absolutely inept, corrupt, and incompetent, and it has simply thrown up its hands and all-but-admitted, 'We just don't know what the fuck to do!' " How on earth can you claim that does not fall into the catagory of a TROLL? There's no invitation to a discussion there - simply insults and an attempt to provoke a negative response. Trolling carries the same penalties as a personal insult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #59 October 29, 2004 Leaving aside the jingoism (from both sides) and the petty arguments... Let's talk aboput ASBO's. Firstly, "Anti-Social Behaviour Orders" are not given out "arbitrarily by the police", they are issued by a court. So yes, there IS a court case. Admittedly, most ASBOs are sought by the police or the local council, but a Judge, Sheriff or Magistrate issues the ASBO. Second, the ASBO's mentioned in the article are, as the article says, the BIZARRE ones. Third, consider the ASBO as a "preventive offence" and as the article indicates, are commonly applied to people who have already committed numerous repeat offences - and make the person's preparatory acts in committing a crime an offence in itself: The habitual car thief who wears a hat in an effort to avoid identification on CCTV is thus banned from wearing a hat or entering any car park (it's not like he legally owns a cer in the first place). The habitual sneak thief is banned from knocking on a door in the first place. Yes he's been charged with numerous thefts - now they're making his preparations to steal an offence in itself for him. Similarly the ban on entering health premises is to prevent the habitual medical equipment thief from preparing to steal medical equipment. The person who INSISTS on playing music so loud that her neighbours furniture moves and has already had umpteen prosecutions and god knows how much equipment confiscated now commits a crime by posessing a stereo or similar. Thus she can't even prepare to commit the crime again. And so on... In effect, the ASBO creates a crime for certain individual people to do certain things which while lawful and normal for the population as a whole, are being abused by some. Fourth. One of the penalties for breach of an ASBO can be eviction form the offender's home! Even if the offender owns their home! Additionally, ASBOs can be issued against parents of unruly youths. Thus the lever "Make sure that your little angel behaves... Or look up Removals in the Yellow Pages!" Similarly, the person who's constantly played music at a volume to destroy her neighbours quality of life is going to see more than her stereo confiscated if she doesn't desist. Also, the man who habitually abuses refuse collectors isn't just going to be locked up or fined, he's heading toward being homeless (repeatedly when the refuse collectors keep stealing his cardboard box) At the moment ASBOs are fairly new and are by their nature are supposed to be VERY flexible. I have seen one ASBO go all the way to eviction and this DID completely solve the problem. The householder (and friends) were constantly playing loud music, and threatening and abusing neighbours if the police were called. She was evicted from her 3 bedroom house, and rehoused out of the area (1 bedroom flat) and the problem didn't move with her. In conclusion, ASBOs are flexible and don't impinge on law-abiding people doing lawful things. Time will tell just how effective they are, but they're looking good so far. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 616 #60 October 29, 2004 first answer - drunk driving requires she get caught in the act by the police - we've tried but when a police car appears on the road at 1am - her kids phone her and she parks up - its not that easy... Secondly it is not only the UK that has screwed up laws (& some are: read up on Tony Martin you'll enjoy that one) but last night there was an article on the California three strikes and you're out law - people there have been given 25 yrs (life) for stealing a slice of pizza. I think thats as screwed up as anything we've got. I am sure we could all list screwed up laws from ALL countries that we live in (but we've got to keep politicians and lawyers busy )Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #61 October 29, 2004 Very nicely put - not too often I see a post that I think - I wish I had written that.... Things only seem crazy if you snip highlight words and look for them to be... All of the ASBO's I have seen I can fully understand the intent behind. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #62 October 31, 2004 Hi all, Firstly this "reply" is an unashamed bump to get the ASBO thread "back up the ladder" in SC. Second, I'd like to clarify my previous post, and the reason I believe that ASBOs are the way forward in law and will ultimately be adopted in other countries: We all believe in personal freedom. we all want the right to say and behave as we wish at any given time. With reasonable people of moderate indulgence in their personal tastes, this behaviour does not impinge on others. The problem arises with that element of society whose indulgence in personal tastes and behaviour DOES impinge on the life quality of others. The solution to this has been the passing of laws prohibiting ALL from "inappropriate" behaviour. While most of these laws are sensible, there have been some exceptions; EG the blanket ban on anything which looks like a firearm on school premises and the draconian punishments inflicted for even a minor transgression (as discussed in another thread). Another (local) example was the problem of a small segment of society drinking and being drunk in public where the "solution in law" was to issue a blanket prohibition on drinking andpossessing open alcohol containers in public. Yes, it did help solve the problem, but it also made "criminals" of otherwise law abiding people who, in summer wanted to have their drink outside the pub! They aren't impinging on anyone else's life, but suddenly they are criminals! This is where the ASBO comes in. It is a means of curtailing the behaviour of an individual or specific group while NOT curtailing the similar or identical behaviour of the population as a whole. Thus, instead of "Banning Drinking in Public" for all, you can "Ban possession of alcohol in public for all minors" AND issue an ASBO prohibiting the few habitual local public drunks from all licensed premises and from possessing any alcohol in public - with draconian punishments for breaching the ASBO. In this way, me and the folk who don't cause a problem CAN enjoy say, a bottle of beer and a sandwich outside the pub, or in the park without breaking the law.... WHile the person who's abused that freedom in the past is denied it. Therefore, the net result of ASBOs is greater personal freedom for the population as a whole, with specific removal of certain freedoms for those who have abused such freedoms. I'd like to add a hypothetical american example for an ASBO: You have an absolute right to bear arms; you can own guns and ammunition. I'll bet that at new year, quite a few of these are discharged into the air. That can be considered reasonable. Now imagine the person who decides to celebrate his birth-time (say 3.30am) every day by firing a gun into the air. This would wear thin pretty soon with the neighbours. WITHOUT affecting the overwhelming right to bear arms, he could be served an ASBO prohibiting him from discharging a firearm in the hours of darkness / prohibiting him from possessing firearms or ammunition, or face confiscation of his firearms and eviction from his home. Thus the problem WILL be solved one way or the other, without impinging on the rights of the people as a whole. Finally, PJ has repeatedly claimed to want to discuss ASBOs, and I await his response to MY posts. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #63 October 31, 2004 It seems like a way to plug the holes in the laws where public ordinances do not exist. This morning at 9am, some very young (like 10-12 yr old) kids were tear-assing up and down the street on a motorized scooter (yes, there were two of them), making a racket and putting themselves and others at risk. There are currently no state laws addressing these machines, so kids ride them all over public roads. I have to have a drivers' license, and pay for my plates, etc. in order to be "priveleged" to use the roads, but these young kids are out there with no helmets and obeying no traffic laws, because the laws simply don't apply to them (yet). It would be heaven if the Sheriff came by and confiscated those scooters for public-safety reasons, or because they're just a noisy nuisance. The Island counties could have their LEs issue fines, etc. to the idiots who make so much racket and disruption with jet-skis. I'm thinking about the idiots with snowmobiles being such a pain in the Winter. I'm sick of hearing about these people's so called rights....WHAT ABOUT MY RIGHT TO SOME FUCKING PEACE AND QUIET?! mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #64 October 31, 2004 QuoteSecondly it is not only the UK that has screwed up laws (& some are: read up on Tony Martin you'll enjoy that one) ) As much as I hate thieving scum, Tony Martin got the sentence he deserved (even if he was released early). You can't shoot someone in the back as they run away and claim self-defence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #65 November 1, 2004 Quote You have an absolute right to bear arms; you can own guns and ammunition. I'll bet that at new year, quite a few of these are discharged into the air. That can be considered reasonable. Now imagine the person who decides to celebrate his birth-time (say 3.30am) every day by firing a gun into the air. This would wear thin pretty soon with the neighbours. WITHOUT affecting the overwhelming right to bear arms, he could be served an ASBO prohibiting him from discharging a firearm in the hours of darkness / prohibiting him from possessing firearms or ammunition, or face confiscation of his firearms and eviction from his home. Thus the problem WILL be solved one way or the other, without impinging on the rights of the people as a whole. There's nothing reasonable about firing into the air, be it New Years or some other occasion. And if they're caught, they're hit with criminal convictions that likely remove their right (in the US) to own guns. I know JohnRich has attempted to prove that bullets come down with harmless force. True or not, drunken firing up is just an careless slip away from firing more horizonally and is not an appropriate use of a weapon. They aren't toys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #66 November 1, 2004 "Therefore, the net result of ASBOs is greater personal freedom for the population as a whole, with specific removal of certain freedoms for those who have abused such freedoms." Mike, the success or otherwise of this piece of legislation will largely depend on its application. That means we have to trust the judgement of people like you and your colleagues. I think this will work just fine, keep up the good work.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
