FinlanderSisu 0 #1 October 21, 2004 Conservatives would have us believe that liberals are out to destroy our country. A popular conservative refrain is that two types of people live in the United States: Americans and liberals. That might be funny except that it's a grotesque distortion of American history. The fact is that every single significant movement advocating an expansion of American liberty has been initiated by liberals and violently opposed by conservatives. The Abolitionist movement, led by unapologetic liberals like William Lloyd Garrison, Wendell Phillips and Frederick Douglass, was viciously opposed by conservatives in both the North and the South and many abolitionists were murdered or imprisoned. The Reconstruction of the South following the Civil War was perhaps the boldest liberal experiment in American history, but it was crushed by southern whites who called themselves "The Conservatives" and formed terrorist clubs like the Ku Klux Klan. The Woman's Rights Convention of 1848 and the subsequent woman's suffrage movement were spearheaded by the indomitable liberal Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Conservatives cried out from pulpits and the halls of Congress against this dangerous attack on "traditional family values." Courageous suffragists would endure 72 years of brutal harassment by conservatives before securing the right to vote. The noble effort to reform labor laws and protect working class people was led by a diverse group of liberals from Jane Addams to Eugene Debs who were fought every step of the way by conservatives, even when it came to child labor reform! Finally, during the Civil Rights movement of the 20th century brave liberal Americans, including Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., gave their lives in the fight for equal rights for black Americans. Live television coverage exposed the ugliness of the southern conservatives' opposition to Civil Rights. Today many good people are being hoodwinked into thinking themselves conservative because of the new mantra that conservatives are more patriotic and more Christian than liberals. They are neither. The conservative philosophy is not patriotic because it seeks to squelch political dissent and it mocks cultural diversity - the two most important aspects of both our history and our unique American democracy. Conservatism cannot be Christian because it embraces all sorts of violence including the death penalty, unrestricted sale of firearms, destructive exploitation of our environment and preemptive military invasions against defenseless nations. Conservatives make a big deal out of their support for the "unborn," but this is an easy position because it doesn't cost a dime. It's when people are actually born into this world that conservatives lose their compassion. Conservatives lead the fights against tax measures and legislation to fund education and human resources, but they happily support measures to put more people in prison and build more bombs. Conservatives have always thrived on fear; fear of change, fear of the future, and especially fear of those who are different. They react to this fear by picking on other people; newly freed slaves, women seeking equal rights, immigrant laborers seeking better pay and now gay Americans asking for the most basic of all rights - the right to love and to be loved. Anyone who picks on those less fortunate, or different, are narrow-minded bullies and as we all learned in grade school, bullies are cowards. So if you want to be on the wrong side of American history and the wrong side of humanity, go ahead and call yourself a conservative. As for me, I believe that America will rediscover its great liberal tradition and once again strive to become a progressive, creative nation that stands as a beacon of hope for "the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free." A BUZZFLASH READER CONTRIBUTION by Joseph Fulton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #2 October 21, 2004 So liberals are exempt from being violent....Interesting..."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #3 October 21, 2004 >The Abolitionist movement, led by unapologetic liberals like William Lloyd > Garrison, Wendell Phillips and Frederick Douglass, was viciously opposed > by conservatives in both the North and the South and many abolitionists > were murdered or imprisoned. >The Reconstruction of the South following the Civil War was perhaps the > boldest liberal experiment in American history, but it was crushed by >southern whites who called themselves "The Conservatives" and formed >terrorist clubs like the Ku Klux Klan. I think this guy is making a very basic mistake, which is that the republican party (which isn't always conservative) is exactly the same as the GOP (which isn't the oldest party) and that they haven't changed. Lincoln was a republican, and represented the merchantile north. The agrarian south was democratic. The north had no need for slavery (they didn't have many cotton fields) and thus opposed slavery. Lincoln turned slavery into the cause of the Civil War, even though its true roots were buried in a constitutional and economic conflict between the north and south. But slavery seems like a good cause - like calling the war in Iraq "a war against terrorism." I mean, who's going to be for either terrorism or slavery? Once the war was over, the now dirt-poor whites in the south were democrats; there were a lot of them who hated the recently freed blacks. The blacks were by and large republicans who accepted the party of Lincoln. As time went on, the republicans gradually changed into a laissez-faire, anti-immigrant party, still representing industrialists. But the republicans of 1860 have essentially nothing to do with the republicans of the 20th century, and even today we are seeing changes in the republican party as it continues to evolve. Consider that the republican party was, as recently as ten years ago, the party of smaller government! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #4 October 21, 2004 QuoteThe fact is that every single significant movement advocating an expansion of American liberty has been initiated by liberals and violently opposed by conservatives. Like the "assault weapons" ban? I think that the above statement, minus the "single", applies in both directions: Quote...every significant movement advocating an expansion of American liberty has been initiatied by either liberals or conservatives and violently opposed by the other.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinlanderSisu 0 #5 October 21, 2004 Republicans,at least in the media, revel in the labels they concoct for liberals that would make it seem liberals ARE exempt from violence/bigotry/etc i.e "bleeding heart", "Girlie men", etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymiles 3 #6 October 21, 2004 I disagree, Bill. Fulton is correct because he is talking about conservative vs liberal, not Republican vs Democratic. Phil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #7 October 21, 2004 >Fulton is correct because he is talking about conservative vs liberal, not >Republican vs Democratic. That's exactly the problem. Bush is not a fiscal or constitutional conservative. I'm a liberal but am against affirmative action, gun control and big government. The terms have little meaning when applied to history, since you have to understand the definitions at the time, and then translate that to our definitions (i.e. a conservative in the 1840's was for slavery, in the 1900's he was against it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinlanderSisu 0 #8 October 21, 2004 My intention in this post is to have cognitive dissonance examined about the Current state of conservatism or as a broad generalization ,Current republicanism as opposed to Current policies of Liberalism and/or Democrats Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #9 October 21, 2004 What a skewed, arrogant and uninformed author Mr. Fulton is. Lucky for all the JACKASS Anvil is here to comment. Liberalism in and of itself isn't a bad political philosophy-especially at LOCAL levels of government. The party that represents that philosophy on the U.S. national stage is truly an embarrassment to it. Mr. Fulton is just as embarrassing. Quote The conservative philosophy is not patriotic because it seeks to squelch political dissent and it mocks cultural diversity - the two most important aspects of both our history and our unique American democracy. Squelch political dissent? Outright lie. Mock cultural diversity? Note to Fulton: CONSERVATIVES DON'T CARE WHAT COLOR ANYONE IS. YOU SHOULD TRY IT! Cultural diversity one of the most important aspects of our history and democracy? Only if you judge folks by their race Mr. Fulton! Oh goody! Let's continue! Quote Conservatism cannot be Christian because it embraces all sorts of violence including the death penalty, unrestricted sale of firearms, destructive exploitation of our environment and preemptive military invasions against defenseless nations. Dear God where to begin? Death Penalty Fulton, if you haven't read the Bible, I suggest you do so. Focus on the Acts and look for these folks named Ananias and Saphira. Then check out the works of St. Augustine (City of God), St. Thomas Aquinas (Catechetical Instructions and Summa Theologica) - both Doctors of the Church. Look for Aquinas' three objections and rebuttals concerning the death penalty - then get back to me. Firearms Note to Fulton: GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. Kleck estimates over 2.5 million Americans defend themselves or prevent crimes with guns every year. Environment Hey Fulton - when you think 95-0 AND Kyoto, what comes to mind? Preemptive Strikes on defenseless countries Defenseless? Mr. Fulton, you're either an uninformed person or a liar of AL GORE proportions. Oh darn, that was so much fun...let's continue... Quote Conservatives make a big deal out of their support for the "unborn," but this is an easy position because it doesn't cost a dime. It's when people are actually born into this world that conservatives lose their compassion. If you're SO proud of your position on abortion, Mr. Fulton, then by all means SHOW America what you support. Show videos of abortion, say 'this isn't murder! Those conservatives are all liars! Don't take my word for it - watch for yourselves! Here's videos of first, second, third trimester, and a couple of partial-birth abortions all on video so you can make your OWN decision!' We know why you wouldn't do so, Mr. Fulton. Show the second/third trimester & partial birth abortions to an audience, state it's not murder, then talk to me about compassion. You won't and we all know why, brave brave Sir Robin...er...Mr. Fulton... By the way, Fulton - there are many, many conservatives who do not favor an all-out ban on abortions - I am one of them. Fun, fun fun. Let's keep going! Quote Conservatives lead the fights against tax measures Proudly! It keeps $ where it belongs - with those who earned it! Quote and legislation to fund education and human resources There is little correlation between education $$ spent and education quality - check out DC's schools. Deal with it. Quote , but they happily support measures to put more people in prison and build more bombs. Everyone laugh the next time a left winger talks about prison overcrowding, crime rates, or not funding our troops. Laugh at Mr. Fulton. Laugh hard. Quote Conservatives have always thrived on fear; fear of change, fear of the future, and especially fear of those who are different. They react to this fear by picking on other people; newly freed slaves, women seeking equal rights, immigrant laborers seeking better pay and now gay Americans asking for the most basic of all rights - the right to love and to be loved. Hey Fulton! It is LEFTIES that scare seniors about MEDICARE and SS and minorites about non-existent racial prejudice year after year after year after year after year. There is NO law on the books that says ANYONE is prohibited from loving ANYONE else! DEAL WITH IT! 'Tis YOU who thrive on fear and ignorance, Mr. Fulton. What constitutional right do women not enjoy that men do, Mr. Fulton? NONE Mr. Fulton! Quote Anyone who picks on those less fortunate, or different, are narrow-minded bullies and as we all learned in grade school, bullies are cowards. I agree, Mr. Fulton. Wholeheartedly. Quote So if you want to be on the wrong side of American history and the wrong side of humanity, go ahead and call yourself a conservative. Hey - Fulton! Why don't you LEARN a bit of history then get back to us? How about recent history - the stuff you probably lived through, say the COLD WAR? While reading about what you should already know, focus on left wingers' position on damned near every issue. Quote As for me, I believe that America will rediscover its great liberal tradition and once again strive to become a progressive, creative nation that stands as a beacon of hope for "the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Fulton, your father must work for Miracle Grow. Only sombody with a green thumb and access to the finest of plant growth products could...ahhh....never mind...ladies might read this... HEY FULTON!!! WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK SNEAKS ACROSS THE BORDER AND WHY DO YOU THINK THEY'RE COMING HERE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!! There. I'm done. I feel much better. [/rant] Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! 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FinlanderSisu 0 #10 October 21, 2004 WOW! who would have thought a "copy and paste" would get the anvil in such a tizzy lol. There there,,,,,,,there there. Concerning youre death penalty you may cite mortal aquino for what you like, However I do read the bible. Remember in the old test. "an eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth" rhetoric, you may have forgotten jesus,son of god saying in New test, "I know you have heard an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth but I say turn the other cheeck'? I must have missed the Commandment that says "thou shalt not kill unless........" . Bush as we ALL know is a big supporter of Political dissent. Tell that to Peace mongering Cat stevens LOLOLOLOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #11 October 21, 2004 Quote If you're SO proud of your position on abortion, Mr. Fulton, then by all means SHOW America what you support. Then the legal drinking age should be changed to 20 years and 3 months._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #12 October 21, 2004 >If you're SO proud of your position on abortion, Mr. Fulton, then by all > means SHOW America what you support. Show videos of abortion. . . . If you are against abortion, one might ask how many children you have adopted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #13 October 22, 2004 QuoteIf you are against abortion, one might ask how many children you have adopted. I think there's a significant difference between killing your unborn child and taking responsibility of someone elses. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #14 October 22, 2004 Quotebrave brave Sir Robin People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #15 October 22, 2004 >I think there's a significant difference between killing your unborn >child and taking responsibility of someone elses. Oh, I agree. But if you can claim that anyone who is pro-abortion is a hypocrite unless they force people to watch shock films, it is no stretch to say you could apply the same judgement to someone who is anti-abortion and doesn't do anything to help with the problem. Compassion is easy to talk about, hard to actually do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pdj6p 0 #16 October 22, 2004 Here is a bit of history that you have completely ignored. The first state to give women the right to vote was Utah a conservative state with a completely conservative legislator. So your claim that every single movement advocating liberties was brought about only by liberals is completely false. in other words a lie. Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #17 October 22, 2004 Shock films? While I agree that films of such would be shocking, the context in which you place the term is utterly incorrect. Furthermore, I call nobody hypocrite in my prose - I simply advocate left-wingers coming out and showing America what they support. I maintain that they cannot do so on a large scale and hope to maintain popular support for their abortion position (or support of racial discrimination either, for that matter; non-sequitur here). I fail to see the logic of your adopt-a-baby argument, but if it makes sense to you then I suppose it's nice. I just wonder how you came by it. With regards to compassion - judge it however you like. I give to charity every month and all my friends know they've but to call and I'll do damned near anything for them should the need arise. I don't know a metric for compassion but should a reasonable one be proposed, have no doubt that I'll be at least even with everyone else - and probably ahead. I'm scratching my ears, nibbling on a carrot, and thinking of going to bed... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #18 October 22, 2004 >I simply advocate left-wingers coming out and showing America what they support. Do you advocate mastectomies when it is the only procedure that will save a woman's life? If so, does that mean you should (if you had the strength of your convictions, that is) show america what you support by showing all your friends videos of women's breasts being removed? >I fail to see the logic of your adopt-a-baby argument, but if it makes > sense to you then I suppose it's nice. I just wonder how you came > by it. I'm one of those funny people who think doing something about a problem is more important than propaganda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #19 October 22, 2004 Abortion and masectomies are two different medical procedures with little in common. I agree with your approach to problem solving, yet I can adjust my television set all day and not get the tape stuck in my VCR to come free. To solve a problem one must address the problem itself - not something related to it. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
