rhino 0 #1 October 15, 2004 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/15/eveningnews/main649727.shtml This is JUST THE BEGINNING.... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #2 October 15, 2004 Are any outlets other than CBS carrying this? Because if not, it has the credibility of the average supermarket rag alien story. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #3 October 16, 2004 saw it on MSN about an hour agoI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #4 October 16, 2004 QuoteAre any outlets other than CBS carrying this? Because if not, it has the credibility of the average supermarket rag alien story. NPR was carrying it.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 October 16, 2004 All left wing liberal new rags Its only true if FOX covers it. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #6 October 16, 2004 Is insubordination somehow now okay? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #7 October 16, 2004 QuoteThey don't have bulletproof protection on the vehicles And my home DZ doesn't have trampolines everywhere - get over it. You signed up for a dangerous job and you knew it at the time. You can't now bitch that your job includes dangers. That was the point! QuoteIt's just not safe to be in a hostile territory Of course it's fucking not you moron - that's why it's called "hostile territory". Christ - if ever there was a reason why someone remains a private. QuoteThey are holding us against our will. We are now prisoners. No they're not - you're in the fucking army - you signed a CONTRACT that said they're allowed to do that. I don't fucking care what shit storm they told you to go into - you're a grunt and that's what you signed up to do. You go where they tell you, body armour or not. If there are policital questions to be put by all means, make the public aware of those doubts and the public will pursue a policial or at least logistical solution... Yes, we should pay for our troops to have body armour where possible, lives are worth more than metal... but you are not imbued with the authority to question your orders. You do NOT vote with your feet in the military! A soldier does what they are ordered to do. They do not question their orders, they do what they are told regardless of the risk to themselves. That is their job. That is the single thing they signed up to do. That is what they are paid (well) for. "Ours is not to reason why but to do or die." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #8 October 16, 2004 Apparently some of the vehicles were not mission ready, 'Deadlined', meaning that by the regulations they were not allowed to be used until repaired. I read that one of the vehicles couldn't go faster than 40 mph. Bad transmission maybe? I'd hate to be sitting in a 5000 gallon fuel truck when the transmission goes out in the middle of the Suuni triangle. It looks to me like an NCO stood up and refused to lead his or her soldiers into a dangerous environment with faulty equipment. I'm waiting for more details. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 October 16, 2004 QuoteIs insubordination somehow now okay? Refusing to go on a suicide mission is definitely o.k. Especially a pointless mission. If they were insubordinate then the command wouldn't be letting this slide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #10 October 16, 2004 Have you ever served in the military first of all? Have you been to Iraq secondly? Trying to see if you are a tough talking Arm Chair Quarterback or not... Have you ever put your ass on the line in any place other than a court room? QuoteYou signed up for a dangerous job and you knew it at the time. You can't now bitch that your job includes dangers. That was the point! You are quick and hasty in your remarks. #1 there vehicles were not armored, #2 the fuel they were carrying was bad #3 the vehicles were slow and had maintenance problems.. If in those circumstances you would still "blindly" follow orders to march to your death you are a fucking moron.. QuoteNo they're not - you're in the fucking army - you signed a CONTRACT that said they're allowed to do that. While they DID sign a contract WE and our government are OBLIGATED to make sure that they are properly protected in their missions. That has not been done. While I don't agree with simply refusing to do a mission maybe they tried everything else and maybe "because they aren't sitting behind a warm desk in the UK" they have better information than you do. QuoteYes, we should pay for our troops to have body armour where possible NO.. We should ALLWAYS pay for it... No exceptions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By not delivering bad fuel they saved lives... QuoteA soldier does what they are ordered to do. They do not question their orders, they do what they are told regardless of the risk to themselves. Actually soldiers are trained to adapt and overcome.. They are certainly allowed to use their brains... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 October 16, 2004 Quote A soldier does what they are ordered to do. They do not question their orders, they do what they are told regardless of the risk to themselves. That is their job. That is the single thing they signed up to do. That is what they are paid (well) for. "Ours is not to reason why but to do or die." That excuse has never worked for war crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #12 October 16, 2004 ok, first off, It's 2.30 am and I'm ha;f a bottle of scotch down... er... lets see... where were we... no not signed up, although many times tempted... ass on the line other than a court room - no, but it's nice to see you know who I am. (have you any idea how long it took me to type that). Accepted, I do no know the specifics of this case - there may well be things unique to these circumstnaces that render it outside of the norm... but I would stand by my position that under most circumstances, a soldier is under a duty to do as ordered regardless of the personal peril it put's them in. That is the tradition of the British army and I personally would not hesitate in signing up to that creaed if my country was theatened. I know that probably counts for little to a person who actually has served their country but in my case it really is a genuine wish. I am a scholar of british military history and know better than most what the king's shilling really means. If the fuel was bad then that makes it a pointlesss mission... BUT what if the private on the ground does not KNOW that for sure - they are being told to do something which they THINK is a bad idea, but don't know. We don't pay private's to second guess their superior commands. They should do as ordered - they may be wrong. If they are right that is an error on behalf of their CO which will have ramifications within the chain of command. But that does not (at least withing British doctorine) give them the right to start disibeying orders. Now off for more scotch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #13 October 16, 2004 'Amber McClenny left this message on her mother's answering machine. "Hi Mom, this is Amber. This is a real, real big emergency. I need you to contact someone. I mean raise pure hell. We yesterday, we refused to go on a convoy to Taji. That is above Baghdad. We had broken down trucks, non-armored vehicles and we were carrying contaminated fuel. They are holding us against our will. We are now prisoners." ----------------------------------------------------------- THIS IS A BAD SIGN! ABOUT OUR MILITARY -- Geesh! Calling momma???? Man, has this Army changed since when I was in! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #14 October 16, 2004 Quotewould not hesitate in signing up to that creaed if my country was theatened. Your country is being threatened.. You catch twice the amount of terrorists in your country than we do in ours... Sign up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #15 October 16, 2004 Yup - that is one of the exceptions - war crimes. If you're being asked to kill jews etc... following orders is not a defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #16 October 16, 2004 QuoteTHIS IS A BAD SIGN! ABOUT OUR MILITARY -- Geesh! Calling momma???? Man, has this Army changed since when I was in! True, leaving a message to Mama about logistics of a mission will get your ass thrown in jail... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #17 October 16, 2004 QuoteYour country is being threatened.. You catch twice the amount of terrorists in your country than we do in ours Sadly that's been true for the last 25 years or more. My signing up is not at all far from the realms of possabiliy. I'll let you know if I do or not. I have far more than enough military knowlege to get in, I'm way over qualified, and as I understand it the Red Cap's are recruiting at the moment... it's certainly one of my back up plans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 334 #18 October 16, 2004 Quote"Ours is not to reason why but to do or die." Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Milo 0 #19 October 16, 2004 QuoteMan, has this Army changed since when I was in! Maybe the army you were in had the proper equipment for the situation? Soldiers that followed the regs? I doubt all of your officers were competant, mine weren't, but we managed to get the job done despite them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tf15 0 #20 October 16, 2004 More: www.nytimes.com/2004/10/16/international/middleeast/16platoon.html Three times is enemy action Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Milo 0 #21 October 16, 2004 Quote More: www.nytimes.com/2004/10/16/international/middleeast/16platoon.html From that article: QuotePhillip Carter, a former Army captain and expert on legal and military affairs, said the kind of insubordination the unit showed had been more common during World War II, the Korean War and Vietnam, when the draft was still in place and the average conscript's goal was survival. The formation of an all-volunteer Army was supposed to address these problems, Mr. Carter said. There are those that say the extensive call-up of Guard and Reserve troops is a 'Back Door Draft'. I don't agree with that, but I do think a Guard or Reserve enlistment today is much more likely to result in a deployment than it was 10 or 15 years ago. It doesn't seem too long ago when the recruitment commercials said "One weekend a month, two weeks a year..." That sounds like a vacation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #22 October 16, 2004 QuoteMore: http://www.nytimes.com/...eeast/16platoon.html Cut and paste it would you.. I don't want to sign up for anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #23 October 16, 2004 The problem seems to me to be in 2 parts: 1. Having signed up to the reserves for the money and the wonderful water-skiing opportunities, it must be upsetting to be sent to a desert. 2. Where is this reserve unit from? It wouldn't be some part of the US like Louisiana, where there's a tendency to speak French? Seriously, I understand that this is a transportation unit... Which allegedly lacks mission capable vehicles. Who does the maintenance on the vehicles? I assume the unit does! At the most generous this shows a degree of incompetence. At worst, the question of sabotage rears it's ugly head. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #24 October 16, 2004 This unit will surely be made an example of. I expect them to be charged in the worst way for this. I could be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #25 October 16, 2004 QuoteHave you ever served in the military first of all? Have you been to Iraq secondly? Trying to see if you are a tough talking Arm Chair Quarterback or not... Have you ever put your ass on the line in any place other than a court room? QuoteYou signed up for a dangerous job and you knew it at the time. You can't now bitch that your job includes dangers. That was the point! You are quick and hasty in your remarks. #1 there vehicles were not armored, #2 the fuel they were carrying was bad #3 the vehicles were slow and had maintenance problems.. If in those circumstances you would still "blindly" follow orders to march to your death you are a fucking moron.. QuoteNo they're not - you're in the fucking army - you signed a CONTRACT that said they're allowed to do that. While they DID sign a contract WE and our government are OBLIGATED to make sure that they are properly protected in their missions. That has not been done. While I don't agree with simply refusing to do a mission maybe they tried everything else and maybe "because they aren't sitting behind a warm desk in the UK" they have better information than you do. QuoteYes, we should pay for our troops to have body armour where possible NO.. We should ALLWAYS pay for it... No exceptions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By not delivering bad fuel they saved lives... QuoteA soldier does what they are ordered to do. They do not question their orders, they do what they are told regardless of the risk to themselves. Actually soldiers are trained to adapt and overcome.. They are certainly allowed to use their brains... Rhino It's a two-way street. The military has always been that way. Soldiers voluntarily put themselves at risk, and trust the highers-ups to use good leadership and judgement. The troops know there's no such thing as safety from harm. That is after all why they are there. However, it is a soldier's obligation to refuse to follow UNLAWFUL orders, and in my opinion it is a soldier's right to refuse to follow stupid or suicidal orders. Looks like the leadership has failed here, not the troops. The British military has a saying: "There are no bad troops - only bad officers." That being said, in an environment where there is a lockstep doctrine and rules that one isn't supposed to deviate from no matter what, versus the SAME environment where individual initiative, flexibility and creativeness are vital tools (and are encouraged), something's gotta give. I hope the troops who led this little protest are recognized and praised for having the courage to stand up for their fellow GIs, not just by the liberal media, but by their own leadership. But I doubt it'll happen. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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mr2mk1g 10 #15 October 16, 2004 Yup - that is one of the exceptions - war crimes. If you're being asked to kill jews etc... following orders is not a defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 October 16, 2004 QuoteTHIS IS A BAD SIGN! ABOUT OUR MILITARY -- Geesh! Calling momma???? Man, has this Army changed since when I was in! True, leaving a message to Mama about logistics of a mission will get your ass thrown in jail... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #17 October 16, 2004 QuoteYour country is being threatened.. You catch twice the amount of terrorists in your country than we do in ours Sadly that's been true for the last 25 years or more. My signing up is not at all far from the realms of possabiliy. I'll let you know if I do or not. I have far more than enough military knowlege to get in, I'm way over qualified, and as I understand it the Red Cap's are recruiting at the moment... it's certainly one of my back up plans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 334 #18 October 16, 2004 Quote"Ours is not to reason why but to do or die." Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #19 October 16, 2004 QuoteMan, has this Army changed since when I was in! Maybe the army you were in had the proper equipment for the situation? Soldiers that followed the regs? I doubt all of your officers were competant, mine weren't, but we managed to get the job done despite them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tf15 0 #20 October 16, 2004 More: www.nytimes.com/2004/10/16/international/middleeast/16platoon.html Three times is enemy action Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #21 October 16, 2004 Quote More: www.nytimes.com/2004/10/16/international/middleeast/16platoon.html From that article: QuotePhillip Carter, a former Army captain and expert on legal and military affairs, said the kind of insubordination the unit showed had been more common during World War II, the Korean War and Vietnam, when the draft was still in place and the average conscript's goal was survival. The formation of an all-volunteer Army was supposed to address these problems, Mr. Carter said. There are those that say the extensive call-up of Guard and Reserve troops is a 'Back Door Draft'. I don't agree with that, but I do think a Guard or Reserve enlistment today is much more likely to result in a deployment than it was 10 or 15 years ago. It doesn't seem too long ago when the recruitment commercials said "One weekend a month, two weeks a year..." That sounds like a vacation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #22 October 16, 2004 QuoteMore: http://www.nytimes.com/...eeast/16platoon.html Cut and paste it would you.. I don't want to sign up for anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #23 October 16, 2004 The problem seems to me to be in 2 parts: 1. Having signed up to the reserves for the money and the wonderful water-skiing opportunities, it must be upsetting to be sent to a desert. 2. Where is this reserve unit from? It wouldn't be some part of the US like Louisiana, where there's a tendency to speak French? Seriously, I understand that this is a transportation unit... Which allegedly lacks mission capable vehicles. Who does the maintenance on the vehicles? I assume the unit does! At the most generous this shows a degree of incompetence. At worst, the question of sabotage rears it's ugly head. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #24 October 16, 2004 This unit will surely be made an example of. I expect them to be charged in the worst way for this. I could be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #25 October 16, 2004 QuoteHave you ever served in the military first of all? Have you been to Iraq secondly? Trying to see if you are a tough talking Arm Chair Quarterback or not... Have you ever put your ass on the line in any place other than a court room? QuoteYou signed up for a dangerous job and you knew it at the time. You can't now bitch that your job includes dangers. That was the point! You are quick and hasty in your remarks. #1 there vehicles were not armored, #2 the fuel they were carrying was bad #3 the vehicles were slow and had maintenance problems.. If in those circumstances you would still "blindly" follow orders to march to your death you are a fucking moron.. QuoteNo they're not - you're in the fucking army - you signed a CONTRACT that said they're allowed to do that. While they DID sign a contract WE and our government are OBLIGATED to make sure that they are properly protected in their missions. That has not been done. While I don't agree with simply refusing to do a mission maybe they tried everything else and maybe "because they aren't sitting behind a warm desk in the UK" they have better information than you do. QuoteYes, we should pay for our troops to have body armour where possible NO.. We should ALLWAYS pay for it... No exceptions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By not delivering bad fuel they saved lives... QuoteA soldier does what they are ordered to do. They do not question their orders, they do what they are told regardless of the risk to themselves. Actually soldiers are trained to adapt and overcome.. They are certainly allowed to use their brains... Rhino It's a two-way street. The military has always been that way. Soldiers voluntarily put themselves at risk, and trust the highers-ups to use good leadership and judgement. The troops know there's no such thing as safety from harm. That is after all why they are there. However, it is a soldier's obligation to refuse to follow UNLAWFUL orders, and in my opinion it is a soldier's right to refuse to follow stupid or suicidal orders. Looks like the leadership has failed here, not the troops. The British military has a saying: "There are no bad troops - only bad officers." That being said, in an environment where there is a lockstep doctrine and rules that one isn't supposed to deviate from no matter what, versus the SAME environment where individual initiative, flexibility and creativeness are vital tools (and are encouraged), something's gotta give. I hope the troops who led this little protest are recognized and praised for having the courage to stand up for their fellow GIs, not just by the liberal media, but by their own leadership. But I doubt it'll happen. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
