jimbarry 0
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QuoteMy first hand experience is going to have to send a "bullshit" vote on this one.
The software company I work for has 4,000 employees. I'm a department head of 40 people. HALF of them are here on H-1B visas. Why? Because we cannot find enough US citizens who are nearly as qualified as the immigrants. And when I do recommend the hire of a US citizen, it's most often in an entry-level role. We advertise in the right newspapers, industry-related job boards, and such, and when the resumes come flowing in, 7 out of 10 are from non-US citizens.
Cheaper to hire them, "bullshit" again. The visa alone costs about $7k and involves the work of a retained immigration law firm. The salary we pay visa holders is at least $5 an hour higher than we pay equivalently hired US citizens due to "minimum prevailing wage" charts which are out of touch with reality. Then you often have to move them and their family from somewhere in another hemisphere at great expense.
Where are the qualified programmers, database admins, and web developers who are US citizens? The only time (by law) we can hire someone on an H-1B is if we can prove that we cannot find similarly qualified people here in the states. And for my 10 years with this company, this is always easy to do.
Maybe flawed education policy that puts college tutition + room and board out of the reach of many Americans has something to do with this.
Maybe grants and scholarships should be targeted at certain majors instead of across the board.
If you visit almost any science or engineering research lab in the US you will find as many Asians and Europeans as Americans there.
QuoteI'm a department head of 40 people. HALF of them are here on H-1B visas. Why? Because we cannot find enough US citizens who are nearly as qualified as the immigrants.
I guess that the thousands of experienced California software people that can't find jobs are just uneducated slackers.
After the dot.com bubble burst, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an unemployed IT person in Calif. In Florida, we used to receive resumes daily for a while and we hired a few.
QuoteThe only time (by law) we can hire someone on an H-1B is if we can prove that we cannot find similarly qualified people here in the states.
Yes, I know all about "the law". If you want to talk about BS, that is the biggest sham that I have ever seen.
QuoteWe advertise in the right newspapers, industry-related job boards, and such, and when the resumes come flowing in, 7 out of 10 are from non-US citizens.
So, 30% of your resumes are US citizens. How many applications does that work out to? How many does do you get for a job listing? My guess is in the hundreds, right?
So, do you evaluate and interview EVERY ONE OF the US citizens before hiring an immigrant?
Today at lunch, I was told by a co-worker that the local university counsellor told their child not to consider IT because they couldn't place any of the graduates. He was told that "accounting" grads could find jobs.
tcnelson 1
capitalism sure is a bitch when it isn't working for you huh...let's go socialist! oh wait, that seems to not work either.
"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329
...when companies circumvent the laws designed to protect the balance necessary to ensure that capitalism can succeed.Quotecapitalism sure is a bitch
Jimbo 0
QuoteAfter the dot.com bubble burst, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an unemployed IT person in Calif. In Florida, we used to receive resumes daily for a while and we hired a few.
By necessity, the dot-com bubble employed plenty who don't have the skills to cut it in today's market. I've been interviewing Unix administrators for almost a year and haven't found anyone with the skill set or the attitude necessary to be successful in my position. Our development teams have been interviewing Java and ETL developers constantly for 2 years and only RARELY find anyone capable of doing the job. Finally, the same can be said of the Oracle teams. As a matter of fact, our CTO was talking the other day and suggested that the best (and perhaps only) place to find anyone with any real talent right now is at product user groups, and then, only those who currently have a job.
It's a tough market out there; if anyone wants jobs then they need the skills and attitude necessary to survive.
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
jimbarry 0
QuoteSo, 30% of your resumes are US citizens. How many applications does that work out to? How many does do you get for a job listing? My guess is in the hundreds, right?
So, do you evaluate and interview EVERY ONE OF the US citizens before hiring an immigrant?
Yep, that's exactly how it works. Can't hire an H-1B candidate until the US citizens (and green card holders) have been interviewed and determined to be unqualified. That's what the lawyers tell us to do, and the liability is too great to risk doing otherwise. I would like it a great deal to hire no one but US citizens, but I can't make them apply, and I can't make them qualified. We've got a business to run. If the best we can find need H-1B's (or TN's for Canadians), then so be it. A shame, but you play the cards you're dealt.
(ed: spelling)
Quote...when companies circumvent the laws designed to protect the balance necessary to ensure that capitalism can succeed.
I am sure it is being abused by some. but in my personal experience, hiring someone on an H1B visa did cost more than hiring a US resident. Not even including legal and federal fees. And that's due to the "prevailing wages" determined by the (agency formerly known as the) INS. But the industry I work in has its own specificity (like all industries), and I don't believe there are too many H1-B foreign workers who are here for cost saving reasons.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
jimbarry 0
QuoteMaybe flawed education policy that puts college tutition + room and board out of the reach of many Americans has something to do with this.
Ok, let's blame mommy government whenever someone lacks motivation and personal responsibility? Education in the country is available for all who seek it. Community colleges are a very affordable start, finish at a 4-year state school after that if you want. Scholarships, loans, grants, and working while you study are options for higher education that many hundreds of thousands use each year to push their lives forward.
QuoteMaybe grants and scholarships should be targeted at certain majors instead of across the board.
Or maybe we should encourage kids to target *themselves* for achievement. Set goals, learn, push through adversities, reward themselves for true successes, and not waste one moment waiting for someone else to make things "fair". Take advantage of the opportunity our forefathers/mothers designed, fought, and died for, and contribute toward making society that much better for the next generation.
Then we wouldn't need so many H-1B visas. You should see these people I interview from Canada, India, China, Nepal, Lebanon, Australia, knocking themselves out trying to get here and take advantage of the opportunity that many of those born here already have and don't even know it.
jimbarry 0
Quotebut in my personal experience, hiring someone on an H1B visa did cost more than hiring a US resident. Not even including legal and federal fees. And that's due to the "prevailing wages" determined by the (agency formerly known as the) INS. But the industry I work in has its own specificity (like all industries), and I don't believe there are too many H1-B foreign workers who are here for cost saving reasons.
Thanks for backing me up frenchy. I thought I was going to be out here all by meself.
My point I made above summarizes as this: Show me a qualified US citizen when we've got an open position, and I'll recommend hiring them in a second. They're cheaper to hire (logistics of hiring I mean, not salary), quicker to hire (a week or two, versus 3-9 months for a visa candidate) and of course, it's the law. But as it is, half of my staff are on work visas. This isn't my opinion or my desire. It's simply a fact.
jimbarry 0
QuoteQuoteI'm a department head of 40 people. HALF of them are here on H-1B visas. Why? Because we cannot find enough US citizens who are nearly as qualified as the immigrants.
I guess that the thousands of experienced California software people that can't find jobs are just uneducated slackers.
I'd have to disagree with you there (even though I "got" your sarcasm). I pass no personal judgments on people I don't know. All I can talk about is what I see. And I see a job post go out for advertisement and see 4 out of 10, 2 out of 10, and sometimes none out of 10 coming from US citizens and green card holders. And those outside the US most often have resumes which completely blow away those from inside the US with similar education and years of experience.
I wish it wasn't so, but it is. I can't make people apply, and I can't make them qualified.
QuoteQuoteThe only time (by law) we can hire someone on an H-1B is if we can prove that we cannot find similarly qualified people here in the states.
Yes, I know all about "the law". If you want to talk about BS, that is the biggest sham that I have ever seen.
Don't be so sure. The legal liability is too great. It would only take one or two US citizens qualified for these positions to bring suit (it happens) and give a company a headache which detracts from core business. Plus, for your groundless blindly cynical view to be true would mean that a company would rather spend many $1,000s more and wait months to hire someone on a visa than hire someone down the street right now? Provide an example of your "sham".
crwmike 0
QuoteThe only time (by law) we can hire someone on an H-1B is if we can prove that we cannot find similarly qualified people here in the states. And for my 10 years with this company, this is always easy to do.
Yes it's very easy to give lip service to this requirement. It's not only IT jobs, Registered Nurses are included also. Hospitals place a small ad in the paper, process some paper and claim they can't find nurses.
These same 'health care' corporations spend mega dollars in third world countries for education and recruitment through shell corporations and bring nurses here by the boatload. They have a sweet deal set up and provide immigration law attorneys for the new employees as part of their benefits. Haven't seen nursing salaries increase one dime in many years, so, yes, these employees are cheaper.
Additional bonus are the employer now holds the hearts and minds of their new employees. Lose your job (and your sponser), the law says "YOU MUST LEAVE THE COUNTRY IMMEDIATELY".
The newest wrinkle in circumventing the "can't hire an American"is to set up a couple of nursing agencies and hire 'contract' nurses through these agencies. The foreign nurses must sign up with two agencies, they work their first 40 hrs a week with one agency, the rest with the second. For the past several years, the makeup of the nurses I work with is about 80-20 foreign nurses to American nurses with about half of those working 70-80 hours a week ...all on straight time. I routinely have shifts cancelled while foreign nurses are there working their 6th or 7th 12 hour shift for the week.
So, take your bullshit about not being to hire American workers somewhere else. We both know how the game is played.
Michael
kallend 2,150
QuoteQuoteMaybe flawed education policy that puts college tutition + room and board out of the reach of many Americans has something to do with this.
Ok, let's blame mommy government whenever someone lacks motivation and personal responsibility? Education in the country is available for all who seek it. Community colleges are a very affordable start, finish at a 4-year state school after that if you want. Scholarships, loans, grants, and working while you study are options for higher education that many hundreds of thousands use each year to push their lives forward.QuoteMaybe grants and scholarships should be targeted at certain majors instead of across the board.
Or maybe we should encourage kids to target *themselves* for achievement. Set goals, learn, push through adversities, reward themselves for true successes, and not waste one moment waiting for someone else to make things "fair". Take advantage of the opportunity our forefathers/mothers designed, fought, and died for, and contribute toward making society that much better for the next generation.
Then we wouldn't need so many H-1B visas. You should see these people I interview from Canada, India, China, Nepal, Lebanon, Australia, knocking themselves out trying to get here and take advantage of the opportunity that many of those born here already have and don't even know it.
You might just ask how their education was paid for in India, China etc. before concluding that they are just more deserving.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteYou might just ask how their education was paid for in India, China etc. before concluding that they are just more deserving.
See, you just don't understand fair play, John. Socialism is great when it's someone else paying for those social policies and then our capitalistic businesses get to reap benefit of that socialist education.
It's much more American to pay more for foreign workers who got a free education, than to take that same money and invest it educating US workers who were to lazy to work 3 jobs while going to school or who were laid off from manufacturing jobs that have been shipped overseas so that we can all save a few dollars at Walmart.
Quote
Yep, that's exactly how it works. Can't hire an H-1B candidate until the US citizens
Unless you outsource and use a consulting firm instead. It just happens to be that there are quite a few consulting firms that no longer keep a bench of IT workers, but bring in plenty of H1Bs. They front the cost of the visa, lawyer, etc and in turn bill them out for many dollars less than a traditional local would get billed out at.
I used to post jobs on Monster and decided it was no longer worth the time and energy because the majority of the resumes were from consulting firms pushing H1Bs at me, despite my demand that no H1Bs be sent to me in the job listing. You can tell they are from a consulting firm because they have cookie cutter resume templates.
The statistics just came out this week - IT jobless claims are UP again this year and those that do have jobs are making less money this year than last year!
Plenty of IT workers are busting their butts to get retrained, I see them all the time here at my school.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
The software company I work for has 4,000 employees. I'm a department head of 40 people. HALF of them are here on H-1B visas. Why? Because we cannot find enough US citizens who are nearly as qualified as the immigrants. And when I do recommend the hire of a US citizen, it's most often in an entry-level role. We advertise in the right newspapers, industry-related job boards, and such, and when the resumes come flowing in, 7 out of 10 are from non-US citizens.
Cheaper to hire them, "bullshit" again. The visa alone costs about $7k and involves the work of a retained immigration law firm. The salary we pay visa holders is at least $5 an hour higher than we pay equivalently hired US citizens due to "minimum prevailing wage" charts which are out of touch with reality. Then you often have to move them and their family from somewhere in another hemisphere at great expense.
Where are the qualified programmers, database admins, and web developers who are US citizens? The only time (by law) we can hire someone on an H-1B is if we can prove that we cannot find similarly qualified people here in the states. And for my 10 years with this company, this is always easy to do.
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