pajarito 0 #26 October 14, 2004 QuoteCompare and contrast God & Allah QuoteJoshua 11:20 - For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses. QuoteBecause of the wickedness of the Canaanites was so terrible, God decided they must be destroyed. To accomplish this he hardened their hearts so that they resolved stubbornly to wage war against Israel. There may come a time when a person or nation becomes so wicked that mercy is withdrawn and judgment is inevitable. QuoteEzekiel 6:12-13 - He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know that I am the LORD, when their people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak-places where they offered fragrant incense to all their idols. These are the threatened forces of judgment for covenant unfaithfulness. God doesn’t want anyone to perish but there are consequences for one’s actions or the actions of a people. The judgments are more violently and morbidly expressed in the Old Testament but the consequences are the same today. In the end, all will be held accountable. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love you. However, again, there is justice in the world and rightly so. QuoteDeuteronomy 20:10-18 - When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. Quote First we have to realize that the Bible has been formed over a 1500 year period of God's interaction with his people. There is a lot of "starting where they are and leading them forward and to progress". The peoples of that time were of a very barbaric and hostile nature. These rules for warfare listed here are quite extraordinary. They run counter to much of ancient as well as modern procedures of war. Warfare ancient and modern is filled with violence, anguish and inhumanity. These directions given to Israel must be measured relative to the war tactics of the world they lived in and to the heinousness of the sins of the cultures of Canaan. QuoteIsaiah 13:12-16 - I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. Like a hunted gazelle, like sheep without a shepherd, each will return to his own people, each will flee to his native land. Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. "Their infants shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes" - quite an image. QuoteThe destruction of Babylon is a type of the end-time destruction of all God’s enemies and the final judgment to come over all the earth during the period of the tribulation. It is a graphic illustration of “hell on earth.” It represents the extreme consequences for our continual disobedience. It is the “last ditch” effort of God to reconcile with man. Although God’s patience is great, it is the “final straw” or attempt at securing your salvation. Although, the quoted verse is extreme in its description, it also demonstrates the enormity of God’s love for us that he would even extend his love and patience for us till the end. None of this takes away from the love and mercy God has expressed for all people. There is justice, however, in the world and consequences for our actions. God’s expects for us to learn and develop. Although his love for us is eternal, his patience in the matter of redemption is not without limits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #27 October 14, 2004 > First we have to realize that the Bible has been formed over a 1500 year > period of God's interaction with his people. (and several other >explanations of why you can't judge the bible's by today's rules.) Agreed with all your points. Keep in mind you have to apply the same qualifications to the koran. I don't think it's intellectually honest to say that "infants (of god's enemies) shall be dashed to pieces" doesn't apply today but "Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith" does - both were written in a different time and have different meanings today. The bible has plenty of references to a vengeful god destroying nonbelievers, just as the koran does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #28 October 14, 2004 QuoteAgreed with all your points. Keep in mind you have to apply the same qualifications to the koran. I don't think it's intellectually honest to say that "infants (of god's enemies) shall be dashed to pieces" doesn't apply today but "Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith" does - both were written in a different time and have different meanings today. The bible has plenty of references to a vengeful god destroying nonbelievers, just as the koran does. I’ll agree with you that they need to be held to the same standard and the quotes from the Qur’an weren’t put into context. However, in reference to the question, I’d point back to this to establish difference between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity. QuoteWe can easily see the huge difference between the God of Islam and the God of the Bible. - In Islam, God does not love all people. - In the Bible, God does love all people. (Even the enemies despite what punishment was sometimes described in the OT) - In Islam, Allah did not die for the sins of those who were not his. - In the Bible, God did do that. - In Islam, Allah has not performed the greatest act of love. - In the Bible, God did exactly that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #29 October 14, 2004 > In Islam, God does not love all people. > In the Bible, God does love all people. There are a great many instances where the christian god smites his enemies. Even in the new testament, Acts 13 describes god blinding a man who is "perverting the ways of the lord." And I am sure you are familiar with this quote: --------------------- Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. --------------------- As I said before, what the bible is and what the koran is to people is entirely a matter of interpretation. People can (and have) interpreted the bible to mean that gays should be put to death. I know you disagree with their interpretation, which is fine. The koran can be perverted in the same way. In both cases, the failure is in the person, not the book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #30 October 14, 2004 Quote- In Islam, Allah did not die for the sins of those who were not his. - In the Bible, God did do that. Oh come on. I think the most you could possibly say is that a representation of god was shown to die. If that makes sense. Besides, no one has yet been able to show me quite where the element of 'sacrifice' lies in that.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #31 October 15, 2004 QuoteSaying that God and Allah are one and of the same is too simple a view and it is inaccurate. Actually, I think the opposite is true... Do you honestly believe you can understand God on his own terms? Any more than an amoeba can understand you? What always strikes me about interpretation of God is the fundamental truth that that interpretation is based on our own human perspective (in addition to admittedly revisionist texts; whether they be the Bible, Talmud, Koran, etc.), and not a true understanding of the nature of God beyond what He has seen fit to bestow upon our decidedly limited (by definition from the perspective of the Almighty) minds. And NO, I am not knocking organized religion."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
